Hops and yeast

[Ian]

I would really appreciate your sagely and experienced thoughts on a matter guys - two matters I suppose, but closely related, so I hope I'm in line treating this as one topic.
Briefly, by way of background, I have a mate in WA who is a passionate and veteran Full mash brewer (in fact he and two partners have a small commercial brewery as an additional business to their 'day jobs') and it is he who has nudged me to the brink of the reverent pursuit of AG brewing. Anyhow, he tells me that such great strides have been made in recent years in the area of dry yeasts that he now uses little (or nothing) else - and that goes for hops too, and they use just hop pellets.
I have the ingredients for my first two brews (hence my earlier question regarding liquid yeast) and they include liquid yeast and fresh hops.
Now I am sure there would be specialist brews where you would need (or want) to use specialist yeast and hops and that personal preferences play a huge part in all this, but my two questions would be:

A. Would you agree that for 'general brewing' (at least whilst trying to master AG brewing) one would do well to stick to dry yeast and hop pellets and

B. Since I have the mentioned ingredients, and my first brews will utilise the hop flowers (they have provided aroma, bittering and finishing hops) how should one use these to best avoid a clogged cooler? The brewquip guys talked about blitzing the hops in a food processor or coffee grinder for that purpose, or should I make up little cheescloth or muslin bags to pop into the kettle at the appropriate time?

I hope I have been concise enough and, again, I know personal experience and preference play a big part in these choices, but some practical guidence would be hugely appreciated.
Cheers,
Ian

[Stu McKinlay]

Malted grains in the right produce a superior beer over extract.
Liquid yeast in the right hands produce a superior beer over dried IMHO.

Yeh, all things being equal, liquid yeast and grain are probably a little better. The same could probably be said of flowers v pellets.

They certainly give you a wider array of possibilities, if nothing else.
However, there is a HUGE CAVEAT here:
All things are not equal - and I've tasted far more than my fair share of infected, starchy and/or astringent beer.
In homebrewing, the brewer is more often the mitigating factor in the "good v bad beer equation" rather than the ingredients. Two years of NHC results speak for themselves - both champs used dry yeast and one used extract (and I'm confident that the judges were very good).
Come on liquid yeast all-grain brewers. You're all talk so far, let's see some action next year!

[Stu McKinlay]

Actually, one of the biggest problems I’ve come across with liquid yeast users is under-attenuation. I’m guessing this is to a volume or vitality problem. My main problem with dry yeast is that I’m not all that keen on the English one and the American one only suits a couple of beers that I’m interested in (it does appear to be pretty good for strong ales). In saying all of this, I have a few liquid yeasts at home, ready for some summer brewing. I think i've got the rest of my processes in order, so am happy to fork out the cash.

[Reviled]

Ill definately be in next year, so time will tell :oP Not getting my hopes up tho... lol

[JoKing]

I'm not a SOBA member and therefore havn't entered the "NHC". However, the club I was in (Auckland Guild winemakers and Brewers) turned out some phenomenal tasting beers that took out a lot of BiC's in the homebrew club nationals that were the majority liquid yeast and all grain.

eg. I have been Impressed with Doubblehoppys Brewing - and I believe he has been doing quite well.

I'll agree that the brewer is at fault when making astringent starchy beers - there is no doubt. I'll go a step further and say that the brewer is at fault when there are yeast problems in there brews due to a range of factors.

This is why it is important that Brewers like Ian should be using products that suit their level of experience i.e Malt Extract, Pellet Hops and Dry yeast. I realise that Ian wants to go all grain, but that is a decision that he has made: and hopefully his worts turn out well. More than likely he'll do well in any competitions using the correct practices morover what ingredients he uses.

[Greig McGill]

Joking: You don't have to be a SOBA member to enter the SOBA NHC, it just makes your entries a little cheaper. That said, JOIN US! ;)

[Reviled]

Does it cost to enter the NHC? :o(

[JoKing]

Send me a form Greig, and I'll consider it...

[Dai]

I understand where you are coming from, Stu, and I am one of the people that you are probably talking about when you say that you have tried more than your fair share of average AG homebrew as I was slammed in the SOBA comp. However, I do not want to go back to extract, even though it is apparent that people make excellent beer with it. I realise that you need to walk before you can run, and I could probably make a better beer if I used extract, but to me that is not the point. I think my beer is pretty good using grains and liquid yeast, and quite a few people who have tried it think so too (although, the SOBA comp says otherwise!). I would be stupid/arrogant if I thought that my beer was fault free and did not listen to criticism, but I want to make beer as close to how the 'real' brewers do it, not just nice beer. Each brew I do gets a little better and I am slowly working out the bugs in my process. Some may say that the process could be speeded up if I stuck to extracts/ dried yeast, but for me I do not think so as it is just the way I am. Its hard to explain, but I feel that I would rather use a protocol as close as I can get to what commercial craft brewers do, and fix the subsequent problems.

A little off the point you were making I suppose, but may be why AG brewers are not competing as well?

[Kempicus]

I don't think Stu is suggesting going back to extract but was addressing comments made that belittled extract brewing

for me extract brewing is it's own challenge, it's not easy making something decent out of it!

[Reviled]

I took everything in steps, but definately the two biggest factors that were noticable to me, in my beer, were going AG, and then using liquid yeasts, the biggest being Grain for me... Once I tasted my first AG there was no way I was ever gonna bust out the can opener again!

I went from kits, to extract, to one partial, to AG and then to liquids, and I havnt looked back... (allthough I still use S-05)

I reckon the best way to learn is to just read, read, read, and then do some more reading! Heaps of online sources of info out there... I jumped into AG without any help apart from what I got online, just from heaps of reading, it would have been easier if I had been able to watch someone I think, but at the end of the day it worked out well...

Edit : And I totally agree Kemp that making something decent out of extract is not at all easy!!!

[Stu McKinlay]

I have never judged at the NHC, so it wouldn't have been your beer i was talking about.

I'm always happy to taste another homebrewer's beer though, and I consider myself a pretty positive judge. I always look for positives as well as areas that can be improved, and i try to talk people through their processes to see where it is that they may be going wrong (if they are). I also encourage people to get people other than myself to appraise their beer.

I encourage everyone to enter comps, whether you want to win or just get feedback. If I'm not involved in running the NHC next year, I'll certainly have a few (or more) entries in... many of them are likely to be made with liquid yeast and they will almost all be all-grain.

Most importantly though: if you like your beer then it is worth drinking.


Re: liquid yeast - go ahead and use it, but do make sure you buy it off a reputable source. Nicholford or Morebeer are the only options I'd use at present. I rust both of them to get it to me fresh. Like was said earlier, why waste a whole day on yeast that you're unsure about?

good luck...


ps. you are every bit as "real" a brewer as anyone else mate.

[jt]

Sure read. But a picture paints a thousand words - get out there and watch (or assist) someone brew.
A morning or two at Stu's was real helpful to me.
It can confirm any niggles or doubts that you have about your own practices and methods

(and I can botch any brew - extract, grain .. dry yeast, liquid yeast)