Brew Advice

[Mark Kessell]

the next WellyBC is imperial style beers, i'm going for an American Amber Ale as the base style. and not having brewed one before, not 100% sure how to tie it all together.

style is a mix of malt and hop flavours, balanced to the malt side of things.
any advice on the recipe appriciated.

btw - i'm after a full bodied, toffee malt flavour (not 100% sure which malt to use for that), with a light citrus flavour, and a nice piney/grassy aroma.

this is what i have so far:

Type: All Grain

Batch Size: 20.00 L

Boil Size: 28 L

Boil Time: 60 min

Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0

Amount	Item	Type	% or IBU
6.00 kg	.Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Bairds) (3.2 SRM)	Grain	80.00 %
0.50 kg	.Amber Malt (Bairds) (43.1 SRM)	Grain	6.67 %
0.50 kg	.Cara Malt (Bairds) (17.8 SRM)	Grain	6.67 %
0.50 kg	.Crystal, Medium (Bairds) (76.1 SRM)	Grain	6.67 %
20.00 gm	.Rakau [10.50 %] (60 min)	Hops	21.7 IBU
50.00 gm	Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 4 days)	Hops	-
30.00 gm	.Motueka [7.80 %] (Dry Hop 4 days)	Hops	-
25.00 gm	.Motueka [7.80 %] (20 min)	Hops	12.2 IBU
30.00 gm	.Rakau [10.50 %] (20 min)	Hops	19.7 IBU
25.00 gm	.Amarillo [8.40 %] (10 min)	Hops	7.9 IBU
25.00 gm	.Motueka [7.80 %] (10 min)	Hops	7.3 IBU
25.00 gm	.Amarillo [8.40 %] (0 min)	Hops	-
25.00 gm	Simcoe [13.00 %] (0 min)	Hops	-

Est Original Gravity: 1.075 SG	Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG	Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.33 %	Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 %
Bitterness: 68.8 IBU	Calories: 0 cal/l

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body	Total Grain Weight: 7.50 kg
Sparge Water: 0.00 L	Grain Temperature: 22.2 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C	TunTemperature: 22.2 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE	Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp 45 min Mash In Add 18.75 L of water at 72.7 C 66.0 C 10 min Fly Sparge Add 18.50 L of water at 74.7 C 70.0 C

[warra48]

If you want light citrus flavour, and piney/grassy aroma, then forget Amarillo. It will give you fruit salad characters.

The citrus you can get from Cascade.
The piney/grassy grapefruit character you can get from Chinook.
I don't know if there are any NZ equivalents to those hops, but if there are, use your local hops.

My last APA I used Magnum for bittering, Cascade for flavour, and dry hopped with 1 gr/l Chinook, and it's great.

Caramalt is a very light Crystal malt. It won't give you the full bodied toffee flavours you want. Why not drop it to .25 kg, and make it up with .25 kg Dark Crystal?

[Mark Kessell]

too much dark crystal makes the beer too dark.
american ambers have a max colour range of 17. this is currently sitting at 17.6.
any more dark crystal and it's well over 18, which is hitting a browny colour.
a maroony-red colour is what i'm looking for (which i think 17 is isn't it?).

hops: ok. i'm pretty sure the simco is piney as well, and the motueka is very thin, almost grassy/lichees in aroma. i might replace the amarilo with rewaka then. rewaka is more lemony i think (someone correct me here), and it's not soo over powering as cascade is. hmmmm....

[Mike Neilson]

Why not somehing like

85% Marris Otter
5% Melnoidin
4% Caramalt
4% Global Dark Caramel
2% Thomas Fawcett Dark Crystal

Chinook to bitter and Centennial US Cascade and a touch of Chinook to flavour?

It would work out to be aroud 15 SRM I reacon and it would be grassy citrus.

[Mark Kessell]

whats the difference between bittering with something like chinook, as compared to Rakau?

[Reviled]

whats the difference between bittering with something like chinook, as compared to Rakau?

Some people say that you dont get any flavour from a bittering hop and others say you do! Ive done a bit of experimentation and in my experiance you definately do get some hop flavour from your bittering addition, albeit it subtle...

But Chinook for example, is quite a bitter hop, it leaves a lingering dry grapefruity bitterness on the finish... Rakau I cant really comment on because ive only tried it in a few beers and havnt been a fan!

I also disagree with Warra on the Amarillo characteristics - I dont really get fruit salad off of amarillo unless its in small amounts, I get quite a mandarin type citrus ness which IMO is really nice when blended with the slightly floral citrusyness of Cascade...

Definately simcoe for the pine and passionfruit aroma, more so if you dry hop with it!

[denimglen]

Agreed.

In beers like this you usually won't notice the bittering hop flavour characteristics, there are a few exceptions, but usually the late hops will overpower the subtleties. It's more noticeable in lighter beers such as pilsners and blondes where there isn't much late hop or malt to over power it.

One thing I reckon keeping an eye on is cohumulone levels. High cohumulone (more than 30%) will lend a harsher bitterness. Some reckon it's not true but I've found it to be the case.

[Mark Kessell]

thats why i'm not keen on using cascade in this one.
with 39% cohumulone% by AA, it's bitterness tends to be very sour/tarty (like sucking on a grapefruit). dont want that sort of flavour in this one.

[Reviled]

Chinook is very similair as a bittering hop Mark, and I agree about the cohumulone part of things, the lower the better or so it seems...

But sometimes a savage lingering bitterness is awesome, and it accenuates the flavour hop addition, and cleans your teeth at the same time ;o) lolz

Also - listen to Stu about the crystal, way too much in there! I quite like the grist hes posted below - I hate crystally beers personally so allways tend to go for the lower amounts of crystals in my beers, but for an amber his looks about what I would do!

[denimglen]

I find Southern Cross to be a good high alpha hop with low cohumulone. Also it has some American type characteristics so if they show through it's no biggie.

On a side note I'm going to start experimenting with some high cohumulone hops as a percentage of my bittering addition in IPAs to get a more assertive bitterness. I know Vinnie does this on Pliny.

[Reviled]

+1 for southern cross as a bittering hop as far as NZ hops go..

My all time go to US bittering hop is Nugget which IMO is the bizness!

Or if im looking for a bit more 'character' ill pick something like Chinook, Sauvin, Columbus, Simcoe etc...

[Mike Neilson]

Trust me you need a bad arse bittering hop for a Amber, it keeps that long punch through the palatte, if you use a low cohumulone it wont have the punch like say chinook to kill off the darker crystals.

[warra48]

I understand what you are saying about the colour.

However, you are really concentrating the malts in your recipe to get your SG up into Imperial territory.
If you do that, then it follows you will also concentrate the colour to a degree.

I'd still add some Dark Crystal and, as mentioned by Soren, you could always skip the Amber and up your Base Malt.