First Saison, first liquid yeast, whole lotta firsts...

[David R]

So with summer around the corner and a desire to have a crack at something a little different to the US-style pale/amber ales I've brewed too many of in the past year, I'm thinking about brewing my first Saison. It's not a style of beer I have consumed a lot of, but the ones I have tried I've really enjoyed, especially the more moden hoppy types (8wired Saison Sauvin, Nøgne Ø India Saison). I've got a bag of Citra hops sitting in the freezer begging to be used, and after a little googling it seems like a 'Citra Saison' could be a worth-while endeavour. I've been using a bastardised BIAB method to brew ~12L all-grain batches (partly restricted by the size of my pot, partly by my desire to experiment without having to drink 20L of beer for each experiment), and would like to continue to do so as the results have generally been far better than anything I brewed with extract.

The first "first" I've stumbled onto for this beer is the yeast. In the past I've stuck with US05 and SO4 for simplicity's sake, but this time it looks like have to splash out on a liquid like Wyeast Belgian or French Saison. I've been reading up on their website and it ssays their packs are good for 19L of wort up to 1.060 OG. I was going to keep this one under 7% ABV but it seems like with a single pack in 12L I'll be over-pitching, or if I split a pack between two batches I'll likely be under-pitching. $20 of yeast for 12L of beer is starting to make it a bit pricey, which isn't too big a concern but if I can get better bang-for-buck then that would be good. Could I get away with splitting the pack between 24L of wort ~1.060, or should I try make a starter (another first) and increase the cell count?

The other "first" is the recipe itself. I fell like I'm starting to get a bit of an idea of what I'm looking at with a recipe for an IPA, but when it comes to Saison I'm a bit lost. I quite like the look of this recipe, probably more for the colour than anything, but I'm wondering if it could do with dry hopping too?
http://microbebrewer.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/citra-saison.html
I'm thinking it would be best to keep the malt bill fairly simple and let the yeast/hops do the talking? And French or Belgian yeast? Any suggestions/guidance/help would be greatly appreciated!

*edit* also found this recipe that I quite like the look of, perhaps without the 'extra bits'; http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/citra-saison-5gal

[David R]

I'll call them conditioning rooms, my wife likes to think of it more as a guest room. So far we've only had one double-booking of beer and visitors...

How much sugar would you add, and could I subtract some of the base malt to keep the ABV down? I'd really like to keep these under 6%, need something a little more 'sessionable' than the stack of 6-7% IPAs in the cupboard.

[Liam Callaghan]

Hey David, thought I better check with Brett before I post this and gave you a bad steer.  10% of sugar was the outcome of the discussion with anywhere upto 20%.  Some of the best brews made were with simple recipes (Pilsner only).

Yes you can reduce the base malt down and keep the alcofun down to more moderate levels.

[Hillman]

I made this all-sauvin saison in November last year. It was absolutely terrific. I'm using the same malt and yeast to brew a saison tomorrow but using a combination of riwaka, wai-iti and citra hops.

[David R]

Looks like a good recipe to me! Any idea what the AA was for the Sauvin hops?

[Hillman]

12.3%. I undershot my efficiency by a considerable margin -- I probably should have mashed for 90 minutes to account for the lower mash temp -- so the bitterness was higher. Still tasted great.

I know you're not using the same yeast but for what it's worth I fermented for one week at 21 degrees and then stepped it up to 23 for the second week. It worked very well. I brewed the same recipe at Easter and fermented at 23 for the whole two weeks and it ended up with a distinct clove flavour which I didn't like so much. Still a good beer but not quite up to the previous standards, so I'm going to go with 21 degrees today.

[David R]

I've got the ingredients sitting there but haven't got around to it yet, and we've had to move out of the house for a week so they can re-varnish our wooden floors (note flea treatment for dogs will lift varnish off wooden floors!). Fingers crossed for brewing next weekend!

[David R]

Brewing it today Ian, finally! Will let you know how it tastes in a month or two! Here's the final recipe;

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/citra-saison-20

[Peter Smith]

you fermenting it hot?

[David R]

I'll start it at 20C then ramp it up a bit over a few days.

[Peter Smith]

Listen to the brewstrong Jamil Saison show, chris white speaking at the end, says that perhaps for a saison (or any beer where you want real yeast character) dont put the airlock on until after high krausen.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Saison-The-Jamil-...

says start at 20 -> 27 after 1 week,  may try adding sugar to dry it out a bit.

I have 3711 and plan to have a dupont starter ready as well, brew 46L and split the batch.

still keying in beersmith recipe , planning to brew next week.

[Adam Sparks]

I think Saison can handle a lot of hops.... Ill usually keep a bittering addition super low maybe 5 or 10ibu, then get the rest from a flameout addition. I find a lot of New Zealand varieties of hops go extremely well, Motueka and riwaka being real standouts.

Ive made a number of Saisons with Citra and Amarillo and both were excellent beers, mash high (70C) and dont be afraid to add a little oats or rye to give it a little more character (no crystal malts tho)

Your recipe looks good only changes Id make would be to axe the carapils and push all the citra to a flameout/whirpool addition (plus a bit extra to balance your ibu's), you'll get these lovely melon tropical flavors that work really really well with the yeast.

Ive got 40 Liters of Saison thats just finished fermenting with Belle Saison yeast and its tasting lovely, its very very similar to WY3711 but not quite as much citrus, a nice acidity though which 3711 doesnt seem to push out. At 1.008 I turned the heating pads off and let it slowly drop from the 29C to slow fermentation, its now terminal at 1.005. I have a feeling that if I didnt turn the heat off it would have kept going to .99 So just be aware of that, err on the side of lower ibu's and make sure your sparge water is acidified! 

Also dont bother adding the sugar during fermentation, just add it during the boil. The belle Saison will quite happily eat that and then everything else in the wort

[David R]

Cheers for the pointers, I'm thinking of re-using the yeast cake [never tried that before!] and having another crack at something similar, perhaps a little less boozy and more sessionable (less IBU to balance it out, maybe just late additions?). My problem is I'm limited by my 19L pot, so I'm thinking about brewing the exact same thing then diluting it with pre-boiled water to take it down closer to 4%, perhaps increase the late hops so the flavour doesn't get too diluted?

29C is pretty damn hot! I was planning on taking mine up to 25C, is it worth pushing it higher? The yeast does seem like a bit of a monster, was bubbling like crazy only a few hours after pitching! Very cool watching it circulate, it's the first brew I've done in a glass carboy and I was surprised by just how much movement there was.