Regular monthly Auckland-area SOBA meetings

[Martin Bridges]

We had a very successful initial meeting at Galbraiths on Saturday. Many thanks to the people who made the effort to come down (we had about 10 in total). A very interesting discussion was had, and some very good beer was drunk. It was really nice to meet a few people I'd previously only communicated with by email, and a few others who were totally new to me!

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss whether or not there was merit in the idea of regular Auckland-area get-togethers, and if so to talk about what form these might take. I'm pleased to say that there was unanimous support for regular meetings. Indeed it was felt that
this was exactly what was needed to get SOBA moving in the Auckland region.

In summary, we decided:
- monthly is the best frequency for the meetings
- Saturday afternoons are as good a time as any
- we should rotate the venue around different establishments (a few suggestions were mooted, and more are sought)
- each meeting should have a theme (e.g. a semi-formal tasting, homebrewing, beer guides etc.). Lots of good ideas were talked about.

There are a few things for future discussion (particularly whether or not we can do something jointly with the Hamilton-based folks) but I think a lot of progress was made.

I volunteered to come up with a date for the next meeting and after careful consideration I've come up with the following suggestion:

SECOND SATURDAY = SOBA!

My proposal is that the Auckland-area meetings should be on the second Saturday of every month at 2pm. That would mean that the next meeting would be on Saturday 10th May at 2pm, venue and theme to be confirmed (suggestions welcome).

Hope this works for people. I'll send a reminder out nearer the time.

Martin

[Stu McKinlay]

I still maintain, we must agree on what this beer actually is before we can ever agree on what this beer should be named. It may be that once we agree on a definition, it would be more appropriate to modify an existing style by one or two words than to create a whole new style!

I see Dan had low to medium bitterness, I'd definitely object to that. More than half of the beers I listed earlier would have high bitterness. Only the three mainstream ones might sneak in below medium (or at the lower end of medium).

Here's my thoughts, based on Luke's original. I've re-ordered it and have strikethrough on stuff I'd like out and italics for stuff I'd add:

Color can be yellow-blond to full gold. Full malt and a higher original gravity can provide noticeable malt/alcohol sweetness in aroma and flavour, as well as contributing to and a medium body. Alcohol content is greater than New Zealand Premium Lagers or Bohemium-Style Pilseners. The gooseberry, passionfruit, pine and citrus aromas and flavors are directly attributed to the use of hop varieties grown in, or originating from, New Zealand. Hop aroma and flavour is medium to high. Hop bitterness is medium to high. Finish is medium-dry to medium-sweet. Light fruity esters are acceptable. Diacetyl should be absent. A low level of DMS and a slight chill haze is acceptable.
Original Gravity (ºPlato): 1.04750-1.058 (12.5-14.4 ºPlato)
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato): 1.011-1.014 (2.9-3.4 ºPlato)
Alcohol by Volume: 4.75.1-6.2%)
Bitterness IBU: 33-42
Color EBC: 6-168-20 EBC

I'm not sure we have got the hop descriptors spot on but we can get some good advice here from studies performed by NZ Hops, I'm sure.

Hope this gets thrashed around over a few pints at Galbraith's. It's a perfect day in Wellington, for nestling into a warm cosy pub.

[Brendon]

My 2 cents...

Only contentious points for me Stu is DMS and esters. I think it's just poor brewing when they leave the DMS in a NZ Pils. The superior examples don't have it in my opinion. If you can detect DMS with the level of assertive hopping these beers have then there is something wrong. I would also say the same about other sulphur compounds (not lagered long enough, etc).
Also same for esters in a lager... shouldn't be present and probably a bad example if you can detect at the level of hopping we are expecting. IMHO esters have really only been a problem for NZ pils's with a high OG. If you want to flirt with a high OG then you should look to control your ferment a little better.

Could add a bunch of other descriptions around the malt profile e.g. grainy, pils malt character.

The other classic NZ hop descriptors for me are herbal and grassy.

Probably need to mention CO2 at some stage as well. Medium to Med-High for me is the style.

Luke: this conversation is very encouraging. I think it's great that the Brewers Guild and BrewNZ are looking to 'legitimize' such a large significant chunk of the NZ beers out there in the market. Keep up the great work.

[Stu McKinlay]

My reasoning:
DMS - a lot of these beer will be brewed with 100% pils malt, or similar. It's likely there is some DMS left.
Esters - I see this beer as more of a hybrid than a true lager. It would be very interesting to see which breweries are using which yeast.

Even if the hops are more noticeable than the DMS and esters, it doesn't mean that these aroma/flavours are not there.

Maybe something about these traits existing but not taking away from the overall impression of a relatively clean tasting, pale hoppy beer. I could be awayed though - actually, I am awaying - in the end I'd like to see some thoughts from the commercial brewers who are maknig these styles.

Perhaps i should post a link in the Emersons let me down section ;-)

[Brendon]

Also - medium body and medium sweet overall... I don't mind this being in the style although I personally like NZ Pils that are drier on the palate.
I guess this is a nod to some breweries using ale yeasts for their pilseners (yes.... you know who you are) or yeasts such as California Lager that are not as high attenuating as the Northern European yeasts.
So long as there is room in the style for both then I don't object too much.
B

[Tom Jones, Sales Manager]

Stu, I'd rather have:
NO fruity esters.
NO DMS.
ABV at 5.1 to 6.6.
NO chill haze.

Not sure about having the IBU so high? I don't have access to the Auk/Welly beers that may fit into those parameters, so would have to leave it to others.

Name? NelNZner?

Tom, Green Man

[Steve Nally]

Those parameters sound good, I think the final gravity should be higher 1011-1018

[Stu McKinlay]

Is that for the NZ Biman style? anyone else have thoughts here - Steve's comment probably tends to agree with the description.

I think we're agreed that "no DMS should be perceived" because of the level of hopping we're llooking at. It will be there, I'm sure, it's just that it won't be perceived.

Fruity esters? Do we have a consensus on "no fruity esters"? I still maintain that this beer is a hybrid style, rather than a true lager, though I agree that the examples I prefer are the cleaner ones.

[Ralph]

I've been thinking about beer styles of late with the NZIBA coming up. I think that maybe we are trying too much to develop an all-encompassing style description to fit beers that are not too far off the trad pils description to those that are way off.
Looking at the styles, I think that a few of the beers that we are trying to push into the new NZ pilsner style fringes are best described as English-style Summer Ales. If those beers that best fit this modern style are removed from the equation, then it becomes much easier to define a NZ-style pilsner, almost as simply as adding something like words "may be characterised by noble hop flavour and aroma including moderate to high levels of characteristic associated with NZ (or modern) hybrid varieties"

Take a look at the descriptions and see what you think.
http://www.beertown.org/events/wbc/PDF/WBC06_Style_Descrip.pdf
eg styles 49 and 19

Cheers Ralph (three boys)

[Barry]

Brewed with pilsner(?) malt, hopped with NZ hops, fermented with clean yeast profiles, mashed and thus attenuated fairly dry and crisp, lagered for cleanliness. I'm not so sure Ralph.

It's true, I don't have a great deal of direct experience with English summer bitters, but some of those things I mention above don't seem to gel. Seems that the summer bitter has more English malt character than I'd expect in a "NZ Pilsner" (for lack of a better title) and possibly drier with more bitterness. The summer ale description also mentions low to moderate fruity esters which I believe is a mistake for the NZ Pilsner description. Also I think the carbonation for summer bitters is based around the beers being cask conditions (bottles allow for higher levels but that's in the context of the draft versions).

Dunno, more debate needed.

[Ralph]

Yea, that's sort of what I mean. I think some of the pils that we are trying to fit in the NZ pils don't match with your list either... no clean yeast profiles or lagering...or real Pilsner malt.

[Stu McKinlay]

Nah... or... ah... maybe... Summer Ale is pretty close, I must admit.

Let's forget the stats - even though they are way out. I'm sure that Steve Nally doesn't know that Biman is 6 EBU more bitter than Carl Vasta's Pilsner.

Summer Ale - let's also forget the wheat/torrified barley nonsense (a style should never specify the ingredients - ingredients and methods are an assumption that a good judge should never make). Medium-low to medium bitterness is a shade low. Otherwise it is wide enough to fit a few beers into.

Bohemian Pils - Nobody seems to want DMS, which is acceptable in Beohmians. They certainly don't want diacetyl, which is also acceptable. We haven't seen any call for the toasted, biscuit-like, bready malt character. Or the noble-type hop character. Not even close, really.

I know where you are coming from. But, with that mindset, we need to be creating slightly more generic styles (which I don't necessarily think would be a bad thing).

Good argument Ralph. I'd love to see someone agree with it.

[Brendon]

I'll meet you in the middle Steve.... 1017 at the high end?
Bohemian Pils has the highest final gravity range with 1017 at the top end (using BJCP).
I think most brewers would be able to hit this with a bus! Even the traditional hybrids are expected to finish at 1015 or less.
IMHO - At the end of the day it's not measured by the judges and it's the percieved balance between residual sweetness and bitterness that is important.
Personally I like em a little drier...
B