want to try closed system fermentation - is Fermcap available in NZ?

[Dave]

Hi all

I've been reading up a lot lately on using a corny keg to ferment in, and doing the last bit of fermentation under pressure.  4 advantages for me, I can fit 2 corny kegs into my fermentation fridge (so can double output!), it seems to produce cleaner beers, it quickens the fermentation process, and it partially carbonates the beer during fermentation.  Here is one of the best 'how to' articles I've come across.

http://www.terifahrendorf.com/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf

However, to be able to get a decent volume into the corny to ferment, I need to control the krausen. I need a foam suppressant.  In all the articles they use Fermcap-s.  Does anyone know of a supplier in New Zealand?  Or an alternative?

Dave

[Kevin Sharp]

I don't think Fermcap is available in NZ. I got mine from Morebeer. Five Star make a defoamer, but it has a very limited shelf life and there's a good chance it will be expired by the time you get your hands on it.

The active ingredient in Fermcap-S is simethicone which is also the active ingredient in infant gas drops. You can get simethicone from any pharmacy.

[Smiffy]

Just accept that some foam will escape from your air lock, either use an air lock as described in the article, or use a normal air lock with another tube added to the top routed into a catch can which can be outside your fridge.

Smiffy

[David Grant]

The system described seems to use the same principle as the Williams Warn Fermenters, ie. closed fermentation. Foolproof but a bit pricey for me.

[Cain Harland]

You could buy a 23 l corney to ferment in and pressure transfer to 19l to serve. It would be several thousand dollars less than a Williams warm. With the pressure to keep foam down it might be enough head space. Someone with more experience may be able to say how much head space is required for pressure fermenting.

[Kevin Sharp]

Since my last post I've discovered that these guys ...

http://www.pros.co.nz/lab.htm

... sell Fermcap-S. What's more they will supply it in bulk at a very reasonable price.

[Cain Harland]

I've been thinking about this a bit lately it would be nice to be able to pump out a beer in a week or 2 fully carbonated. Smallish beers that want low esters and phenolics being ideal. By the time you've left a bit of head space and a couple of L trub an 18L keg is looking pretty small but Ive been thinking a 23L might yield enough beer to at least almost fill and 18L.

So a few questions for anyone who knows

How much head space would you need if you set the spunding valve to say 5psi for the first few days?

How would this change with/without Fermcap-S?

Would a very clean ale yeast under pressure (making it even cleaner) substitute for a lager yeast but work faster?

To my knowledge having a blow off pipe into a vessel of water acts a bit like a spunding valve. That is a certain amount of pressure is needed to displace the water, neither the width of the hose or shape of the vessel matter just the distance form the surface of the water to the outlet of the pipe as this distance grows so does the pressure required to displace the water. Does anyone know the calculation to figure out x depth of water = y psi?

[Kevin Sharp]

A metre head of water is equivalent to about 1.46psi so it's difficult to get a useful back pressure from a blow off tube.

I find that Fermcap will reduce the krausen to about an inch, but there are a lot of factors that affect the amount you need to add to any particular beer in order to achieve this - the nature of the yeast, viscosity of the beer, how vigorous the fermentation is etc. Back pressure will reduce the krausen. The manufacturer suggests that you experiment with each beer to find the correct dosing rate, but I don't how you do that when you can't see the krausen.

[Cain Harland]

"metre head of water is equivalent to about 1.46psi"

Yeah I thought it was probably not practical but worth asking

How does Fermcap effect head retention in the finished beer?

[Kevin Sharp]

The manufacturer claims that Fermcap improves head retention. The idea being that krausen and beer foam are not the same thing i.e. not caused by the same compounds. However foam positive agents are generally single use only and a vigorous fermentation can cause some of them to precipitate out. The use of Fermcap reduces this.

The FDA regard Fermcap as a process agent rather than an additive which means that if properly used none of it remains in the finished beer.

I've not had any head retention problems with beers I've used it in, but neither have I done a control experiment to see whether head retention is improved. It's also really good stuff to use in the kettle for preventing a boil over. A few drops completely kills the foam which allows me to get a better hot break than I would otherwise.

[mattd2]

I have seen at least one example of a system that uses what is basically a series of large airlock to build up enough pressure (might of been in NZ as well), but this took up an entire wall of the brewery so really not that practical ☺

[Crusader-Rob]

theres a pressurised system for sale on Trademe