Losses to Trub and Chiller

[Richard Rice]

Ok, so for good or evil, I use Brewmate and each time I do a brew, I learn something new about it.  During my last brew (with Brother in Law) we actually measured the trub we have remaining because, as it turns out, on the Brewday page, there is a section that allows you to add Losses to Trub and Chiller.

However, by adding this volume into the Brewday calculations, Brewmate increases the volume of water we need (by the way, I use BIAB) for mashing in.

My concern, however, is what will this do to my efficiency?  I've done less than 10 brews so far, still learning so efficiency isn't really a big concern per se, but I'm keen to make the best beer I can.  Will a larger volume of water at mash in increase or decrease efficiency.

What makes me wonder is I saw a conversation where higher alcohol beers (and therefore, more grain) resulted in lower efficiency - which I understand to be because of the water to grain ratio.  So does going the other way (only by a couple of litres) work the other way.  If I have more water, will that allow me to extract more sugars?

[Mark Jackman]

I've not brewed BIAB before but generally if you are not sparging then the more water you are using the more sugars you should expect to extract, although if you go too far you could face pH issues (water chemistry is well worth getting into but maybe after a couple more brews)

With the example of higher alcohol beers having lower efficiency this is a universal issue. You should be mashing at a constant ratio based on your setup and in a traditional system this would mean less water for the sparge step resulting in less sugars being extracted, this can be counteracted by using more sparge water, then you have a higher pre-boil volume and so must boil for longer to get the gravity you aim for.  It's all a trade off.  Getting your ratios right is the most important thing for your beer at the minute as it will allow greater consistency.

[Richard Rice]

Although using BIAB, we have just started sparging by holding back some of the initial water and using the bottom of a keg with holes drilled in it - sits on top of the boil kettle and we pour the sparge water through the grain.  

Sounds like our efficiency should be improved somewhat, then.  Cheers.

[JumpR]

I BIAB and have been tinkering around with my volumes to account for trub losses - as I was trying to get clear wort into the FV (rightly or wrongly), and tipping a whole bunch of trub.  I ended up significantly increasing my water volumes to account for trub (~5L extra) and found my efficiency decreased.  On my last batch I had to decrease my efficiency by 10%. 

Smaller additions may not impact on efficiency, but larger volumes did in my case.  On my last brew day I ended up drawing the clear wort off into one FV, and then dumped the trub and some water into a spare FV to try and create a lawnmower beer.  I opened both FV's today and the lawnmower FV smelled awesome - there were plenty of hops in that trub!

[Richard Rice]

I siphon out of the boil kettle but still often end up with with at least another litre of trub thru fermentation.  I could imagine how good all that trub would be, tho for making a lawnmower beer.  Might have to give that a go...what was the first beer?  

My increase for loss to trub, tho...would be no more than 3 litres.  Guess the difference is, I could use that extra 3 litres as sparge water...

[JumpR]

I am getting [too?] fussy and ensuring only clear wort out of the kettle into the FV.  I tipped 10L of trub into the second FV.  The first beer was a pale ale as follows (Pale ale was 1.050 [missed OG of 1.054] - I diluted the lawnmower to 1.035):

Amt	Name	Type	#	%/IBU
0.25 tsp	Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)	Water Agent	1	-
5.30 kg	Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt (5.3 EBC)	Grain	2	81.8 %
0.65 kg	Carahell (27.0 EBC)	Grain	3	10.0 %
0.43 kg	Crystal Malt (Pale) (110.0 EBC)	Grain	4	6.6 %
0.10 kg	Acidulated Malt (5.0 EBC)	Grain	5	1.5 %
22.00 g	Pacific Jade [13.90 %] - Boil 25.0 min	Hop	6	18.3 IBUs
1.00 Items	Immersion Chiller (Boil 15.0 mins)	Other	7	-
0.50 tsp	KoppaFloc (Boil 10.0 mins)	Fining	8	-
44.00 g	Cascade [7.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min	Hop	9	9.9 IBUs
22.00 g	Nelson Sauvin [11.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min	Hop	10	8.1 IBUs
22.00 g	Pacific Jade [13.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min	Hop	11	9.5 IBUs
1.00 Items	Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)	Other	12	-
58.00 g	Wai-iti [3.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min	Hop	13	3.9 IBUs
44.00 g	Cascade [7.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min	Hop	14	5.4 IBUs
30.00 g	Nelson Sauvin [11.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min	Hop	15	6.1 IBUs
1.0 pkg	California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml]	Yeast	16	-

[Richard Rice]

Ok, interesting.  Did you use the same ale for the lawnmower beer?  And what volume do you end up with using that method?

[JumpR]

I just brewed one beer and separated the clear wort from the non-clear.  I got 22L clear wort into the main FV.  The remainder of 'non-clear' wort / Trub (10L) and 4.5L water was dumped into the second FV @1.035.  The lawnmower has settled reasonably nicely in the FV, so I should get 8.5L of goodness out of it. 

[Richard Rice]

Sorry, I meant, did you use the same yeast...?

[JumpR]

yeah I did - although I had prepared a 3L starter (of rinsed yeast) for the main beer which was very active - for the lawnmower I grabbed another jar of rinsed WLP001 out of the fridge, warmed it up and dumped it in (pitched about 30ml of 'rinsed' yeast).

[Peter Smith]

I get very different losses based on base malt and amount of hops used, just did a Gladfields Pilsner based saison minimal  hopping and got very little loss.... vs a big ipa with say 250 gm hops and a lot of loss........

most boil in the bag setups and shallow and flat vs tall and narrow...   if you cant mill fine you will get a grist that the water "pisses" through....   osmosis cant happen in a hurry, a mash tun has a slow flow rate...    

[Ralph]

My view is that a bit of trub going into the fermentor is fine. Make sure you leave the major gooey gobs of hot break and any hop particles behind and you should be fine.

I think this article is a good summary. https://byo.com/component/k2/item/890-how-to-remove-trub

Absolute trub removal is not only unnecessary, it actually produces a less active fermentation. A small amount of trub will provide much-needed fatty acids for the yeast.

[Richard Rice]

Agreed.  Even with siphoning out of the boil kettle into the fermenter, I always end up with a certain volume of trub in the bottom of my barrel.  And as Peter said, it can depend on the brew. My Red Ale I brewed recently had maybe a litre or so in the bottom of the fermenter by the time it finished out; but my IPL that is still lagering was over 2 Litres (and that was after leaving a couple of litres in the boil kettle.  Difference was, the IPL had 230gms of hops during the boil while the red had a grand total of 54 gms (both were 20L batches).

The problem is, I never end up with 20 Litres in the fermenter.  After losses to Trub and Chiller, then more than 2 Litres left behind after the ferment (when I racked to secondary for lagering), I now only have just over 16 Litres lagering.  So, will a 2 Litre addition of water at the beginning (or even while sparging) improve efficiency or just give me the requisite volume?

Still unclear to me and not sure I want to start experimenting at this stage.