Not bad "FOR A HOME BREW"??

[Nick Good]

Hi there, I am new to this forum and have only just scratched the surface.

I brewed kits for decades for consumption rather than perfection. I got a taste for it sure but it was allways just home brew and never came close to anything off the shelf. Friends would drink it as well and after the initial taste shock could slosh back a fair bit. It was allways not bad for a home brew.

I started getting interested again, after 7 or 8 years not brewing, while talking to a nephew who boils in a bag and gets it " just like the real thing". I visited a couple of brew shops and was blown away by the array of stuff there is now. so I brought a barrel and a sachet of Mangrove jack pale ale and a bag of Copper Tun brew enhancer ( dextrose ect ). Read some online John Palmer and away I went.

I gave the brew a couple of weeks and then bottled. After 1 week I sampled one. It was very clear and the head was very good but it still has that home brew "ping". Sure it was only 1 week. There is another one brewing, blonde with some craft series yeast for cool temps.

Basically what I would like is a beer that doesnt have the home brew taste tag. Is there such a thing? Can I get a decent beer with extracts/kits? I am happy to try things to enhance the quality but I dont really want to have to become a scientist to achieve it. There must be hundreds of people like me out there. Has anyone got any ideas that could help me on this mission or am I doomed to be a ' not bad for a home brew ' brewer?

Thanks for any suggestions and keep up the good work.

[Nick Good]

You guys are a great help and have made me think outside the square a bit. Trying a lager and dark with S-04 now. No added  sugar. The fluffy foam on top of it when I put the yeast in was almost like art. Just great. There must be twice as much yeast in the packet as the kit stuff so you can really cover the foam and get a good hit. Yes P and S do still sell kits for $10 or $11 making it around the same price as brew enhancer and the yeast $6 something.

The internet is a great way to learn things but it wasnt around when I started brewing and there was almost no information other than books. It is definately different these days. I can feel a serious hobby comming on.

[Mike]

Hey Nick, Robs already pointed you in the direction of the guide I made ( http://www.forum.realbeer.co.nz/forum/topics/simple-things-to-avoid... Ignore the bit about boiling kits - unnecessary, unfortunately I can't edit it now, there's a revised version here https://www.facebook.com/groups/494714937209424/ under files) and it sounds like you're well on your way...I'd also recommend US-05 American Ale if you don't have temperature control, S-04 is great, tried and tested, but US-05 is extremely forgiving and will ferment clean between 15-22C (ideal 17-20C). Even with temp control S-04 can give slight to moderate fruity esters which are to style in English style beers (it is after all an English strain) but if too hot these can get too much. It also tends to ferment very quickly and the temps can jump up quite quick. It also flocculates (drops out) very quickly which can impede cleanup. In my experience US-05 gives off less acetaldehyde (cidery, 'homebrew taste') and is generally more failsafe. 2-3 week primary fermentation, I wouldn't bother with a secondary. 

Next thing would be to try dry hopping, (if you like it hoppy) but make sure you get refrigerated or frozen hops, don't buy hops that have been sitting around for ages on the shelf! Depending on how much you like hops (and the style of beer of course) a dose between 30-70g per 23L works well (or more!). If you cut to the middle and go 50g you can make a 100g pack last two batches, this will impart a mild hop aroma to the beer without being overpowered or overly trubby. I usually only dryhop for 5-6 days before bottling, and crash cool in the fridge to drop the hops out before bottling. Using a sanitised hopsock will cut out issues with excess trub.

[Nick Good]

Thanks Mike your advice is a big help. These fancy yeasts are just great, the brew that I put down a couple of days ago is going like a freight train. The lower temps are a new thing to me but I am getting used to the idea pretty fast. I do have a submersable fish tank heater in one but have set it low trying to hit 17ish. The yeast must be generating some heat because the brew is knocking on 20C but still in the range on the yeast packet. I will give US-05 a go next. Can I use a cheap Lion or Coopers kit can of lager as the malt to replace the sugar/brew enhancer. I was thinking that lager kits will have less hops if I want to brew something like a pale ale.

The more I learn the more I realise how ignorant I and many other kit brewers are just because they followed the instructions on the can. I do have a slight problem with my bottled brew. It is god awful bitter. Sampled at 1 and 2 weeks.I primed with sugar and made the mistake of shaking the bottles ( dummy ). Can this cause bitternes? Will be more careful next time and try carbonation drops.

[Smiffy]

Yes, the fermentation process generates heat, so you have to take account of that, or ideally control the temperature.

Going from my experience with Cooper's kits, they do disclose the total IBU figures for their kits, e.g. Lager - 390 IBU. One kit is 1.25 litres, so when diluted to 25 l it is 1/20 the IBU i.e.19.5. so if you used two lager kits to make 25 litres it would be 39.

Or if you added it instead of sugar, to 25l it would add 19.5 IBU to whatever you had already.

Having said all that, what you taste is the bitterness to malt ratio more so than the pure bitterness, so don't get too hung up on the IBU numbers.

You should shake the bottles to dissolve the sugar otherwise secondary fermentation will take longer. What went into theses "too" bitter bottles?

Are you sure it's too bitter, not sour?

[Nick Good]

Mangrove Jack traditional pale ale + Copper Tun no. 15 brew enhancer + yeast from kit. 2 week ferment with no problems. Took a sample from top with small plastic hose, steralised, for hydrometer reading = 1015. Steralised bottles added 1 measuring tsp sugar to bottles. Filled using one of those stalk type bottle fillers with the valve on the bottom poked into tap. Steralise with sodium met. Bottle stalk filler is getting very old but I did steralise it and will replace. I just thought that if I shook the bottles to disolve the sugar it may add oxygen. I would say bitter not sour. any ideas?

[Mike]

Smiffy: All of the Coopers/Lion stats (including doubleups) can be found on my latest post on this link. http://www.forum.realbeer.co.nz/forum/topics/simple-things-to-avoid...  The Coopers site said to use the kilo weight in the calculations, so I did 1.7 x (value) divided by 23 to get the numbers. IBU range is based on discussion on other forums and how bitterness actually comes out lower than stated. Lion kit stats are direct from Lion. Mangrove jacks stats can be found on some of their brewshop kits like http://www.brewshop.co.nz/mangrove-jacks-golden-lager.html EBC is SRM x2 and EBU = IBU. 

Nick: the brew enhancer you used (coppertun lager) is I think mainly dextrose and maltodextrine with a little bit of dry malt extract (+/- 25%). So you're still mainly using dextrose which can give the beer a thinner quality and make it seem more thin and bitter/sharp. Also using large amounts of simple sugars and the kit yeast that was probably sitting round at room temp for months means that you've most likely underpitched (not used enough viable yeast), and the yeast has struggled a bit with fermentation, giving off slight sharp flavours. Mild acetaldehyde (green apple sharpness) from a stressed fermentation, plus the thinness of the dextrose could be to blame.

Oxidisation gives a stale wet cardboard taste, and usually takes a few weeks to present itself, so it's not that.

However you should switch if you can from the old sodium met to Sodium Percarbonate to clean (can also sanitise in high concentrations) and Iodophor or Starsan to sanitise. Sodium met is a pretty avg sanitiser by most accounts and you don't want to risk contamination. Of course, it's better than nothing!  

Also you should try batch priming where you boil and cool the entirety of you priming sugar and add it to the batch. It's much quicker and you have a bit more control over the carbonation levels. Here's the online tool I use: http://kotmf.com/tools/prime.php

[Nick Good]

You know I think you guys are right. Green apple. This brew is the reason that I joined this forum it was just such a let down. The beer is a little bit to sweet as well so I guess this is un-eaten sugar is it? I didnt realise that the yeast could do that and it will never happen again. There must be hundreds of people over the years that have fallen for this trap and probably still do just doing what the instructions say and using the yeast that comes with the kit. Until recently I didnt even know that the yeast on all these kits was all the same and all ale yeast as well. Even when you think you are brewing a lager! Even when the kit is newish the yeast must be only just enough to do the job.

[Scarrfie]

Welcome on board Nick, you are taking a similar journey from where I started 2 1/2 years ago and for the exact same reason, getting rid of that home brew twang started me down the dangerous path of brewing from grain :-)

Some great advice has been given, so good in fact they you should be charged for it. Lol.

Mate for me if you were to sum up craft brewing into one word then that would be yeast, even more so with extract over all greain. A fair portion other issues come back to the yeast, check out the off flavours section of John Palmers.  Only use good yeast and look after it. Put most of your research into that area. First off is to give your yeast the right diet so they don't get stressed and generate off flavours, that means all the same type of sugars. Mixing malt sugars (maltose) with simple sugars is thus a no no. Temperature control, well that is about not stressing the yeast as well. Once you buy a good yeast you can harvest it an reuse it for quite a few generations, in fact some brewers believe the best lagers come from pitching on fourth or fifth generation yeast cakes. I have mainly used dry yeasts but always make a starter.

My advice would be to take things step by step. Start with a good yeast with malt only and temperature control, when you enjoying the rewards that brings then step up to look the the type of yeast that suits your tasting and pitching rates. Mike good advice is to try US-05 and that would be a great choice to cover a number of styles, even a psuedo lager at lower temperatures.

[Nick Good]

Thanks for that advice in fact all advice. I got some US-05 today and poured the bad stuff (beer) down the plug hole. The kit must have been past its use by date when I brought it but I didnt think to check. I think that you have to be a little carefull of the home brew shops as well. I have a Mangrove Jack blonde lager going with a Craft Series M-84 yeast as advised by the shop. The use by date was past @ 5-2013. There is no heat on this one and was told 7-15 temp range wich is good where I live at this time of year but when I did some research, mainly because of what I have been told here, I found that the yeast needs a double dose if it drops below 13C! Its been down for 2.5 weeks and I checked gravity 3 days ago @ 1012 it has 800 gms enhancer and the temp has definately droped below 13. Any advice on this one or is it doomed? Also when you prime bottles do you use drops or sugar?

[Mike]

Hey Nick, that's a lager yeast so it wants to sit at about 10C, you just underpitched it by using 1 pack instead of two. This may not be so bad as it sounds like a pretty light beer. Did you take an original gravity reading and what was your OG? If it was low (1.044 - 4%) then you should be alright. The thing with lager yeasts is they need even longer fermentation time than ales. You're talking a 2-4 week primary at 8-10C and then a 3-6 week lager at fridge temps (1-5C). Most people transfer to a secondary for the lagering phase but if you can't do that you can try a longer primary, 4-6 weeks, and then either pop the fermenter in the fridge for a few weeks or bottle and keep the bottles cold to 'lager' the beer in the bottles. This isn't advice you'll find most people endorsing but it will work. I did a pilsner ferment with a 9 week primary at 10C and then lagered in kegs, then dispensed from the kegs. S-23 yeast and it turned out commercial quality, very clear with no yeast haze. Leaving your beer on the yeast isn't a bad thing, you won't end up with 'yeasty' flavours, quite the opposite. It gives the yeast more time to clean up after itself and drop out of suspension, clearing the beer. 9 weeks is probably the max I would do though, usually 3-4 weeks for ales. Give this a read if you're doubtful http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-za...

As for priming, batch priming that I was talking about above is simpler than either. You simply weigh out 100g of sugar per 20L (this will give you 2.2 vols of co2, pretty much mid range for most styles use this calculator http://kotmf.com/tools/prime.php), boil it for 10mins in a 400ml or so water, cool quickly in the sink and pour that into your primary bucket. If you do this right you won't stir up the sediment at the bottom. If you like you can stir the top with a sanitised spoon. Then have a beer/feed and wait 20-30mins for the sugar solution to fully mix. Then simply bottle and cap (i use a siphon and bottling wand rather than the tap, and crash cool beforehand to drop hops and yeast out). Easy.

[Mike]

As Scarrfie says, US-05 US ale will get you a clean, close to lager like taste with good attenuation and will only take 2-3 weeks at 16-17C (bring up to 22-23C for the last 2 days for a diacetyl rest if you can, or just warm it up). There's a great video from Brewing TV that talks about brewing pseudo-lagers with ale yeast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zluCEyQtQ0A If it's summer or you can't be bothered with lagering times and the higher pitchrates (2 packs per 23L vs 1) then US-05 is a good alternative. As stated it's extremely  forgiving to imperfect temperature control and underpitching, and versatile: Blondes, APAs, US IPAs, Ambers, US Stouts, Porters, Imperial Stouts, pseudo-'lagers' (Oktoberfest, Pilsner etc), US style wheat beers (think 8 wireds Haywired), even more traditional British styles like bitters/ESB can be nailed by simply upping the ferment temp to 20 or higher to produce more esters. Had a good chat to Dave from Golden Eagle about doing just this and he reckons it works great. Basically the only styles I can think of that you can't at least give a shot with US-05 would be like the Belgians, Saisons, Sours and Euro Wheat beers...basically anything with pronounced funk/banana notes. Beginner homebrewers tend to avoid those styles anyway. Had a chat to Soren from 8 Wired recently and he switched from using Wyeast 1272 to US-05 in many of his beers as he found it stabilised more in subsequent generations, and thus was better for quality control in large batches. 8 Wired Superconductor won best IPA at the last AIBA... 

[Peter Scandlyn]

Mike, reading this whole thread over again slowly to learn more on how I'm brewing...Was always happy with what I produce but doesn't hurt to look. I've only got this far thru again, yet.

Couple of things in your post above.

On leaving brew on yeast....All my production takes 6 weeks from tipping it in the fermenter to bottling. I used to count on only 2 weeks for the same trick, no idea how longevity crept in. Thing is the time does produce a nice clear brew, can pour a nice clean glass with only a teaspoon of yeast scratchings left.

Other thing is your priming protocol. Have recently had something imparted that didn't mean a hell of a lot....looked at the calculator and now it makes more sense although I'm possibly unlikely to use it. Have been priming my brews by weighing out 250g of sugar and dissolving in 250ml of boiling water then pouring without cooling into fermenter, gently whisking the surface with a fork as I pour. Replace airlock - generally get re-action within half to 1 hour. Leave to continue ferment for 5-6 hours then bottle. (I always wait for my airlock to not just stop working, but to level out before I consider ferment complete, take SG reading, then prime).

Question here is, am I overdoing the sugar used for priming?

Have never lost a bottle thru bombing. Pouring can be something else as, if I rip the scab off I end up with ice cream. If I ease the top off, easy pour and nice head, FWIW.