1st All Grain: too Much Wort.

[Crusader-Rob]

Hi everyone:

So I'm trying to correct my water volumes, here is what i did below, hopefully some advice will help me correct also.
Using Beersmith, i used Medium body-Batch sparge
Recipe was as follows:
*4.5kg Maris Otter, and 0.5kg Caramalt
*beer smith said 16 litres to mash at 66 degrees (water heated to 72), ended up at 64 degrees, and i lost 1 degree in an hour.
*I pre heated the MLT with 2 litres of boiling water and removed after 5-10 mins.
*Mash for 1 hour, and did my run off, ended up with 9.5-10 litres of wort, and began to heat that, 1.032 was my Og on first runnings.
*i then added sparage 1 of 6.75litres at 76 degrees, and ran off as normal.
*i then added my second sparge of 17 litres, and repeated as above.
Boiled 60 mins with EKG Hops Additions 60-30-1(40g-30g-30g)

and Irish moss @15mins
Cooled and pitched 1028 wyeast, 2 litre starter.

I ended up with about 6 litre of wort left over, for 21 litre batch plus starter=23 litres
and still got 1.048 OG before yeast pitching. Beersmith said it should have been 1.051, so i didn't miss by too much. its just a waster of good beer... (i don't have a spare vessel for the extra wort.)

anyone have advice for me on my next batch soon.?

[Ralph]

I think over-sparge is when you sparge too long and the pH and gravity of the wort drop too low and you start extracting bad tasting things like tannins out of the grain.

If you are batch sparging with only 2 run offs you will probably never have this problem.

[Vesku]

Using too hot sparge water will add the tannins too, what I remember (I usually don't) reading, the threshold was somewhere near 80Cdeg. I've ruined one beer with too hot sparge water and the beer was almost undrinkable.

The gravity is easy to check when sparging, but there seems to be different opinions, as always, what's the right time to stop. I've a 1012-reading in my diary for one Pilsner, it didn't have any off tastes.

[mattd2]

I mostly see you don't want your mash to get over 170°F / 77°C, sparge water can be higher than this if you want to use it to raise the mash temp to mash out but don't let your mash get over it.

I don't worry about a mash out since I batch sparge and just try get everything out of the MLT and into the kettle as quick as possible then get it boiling.

[Crusader-Rob]

I've made some changes, to my trub losses etc. and boil off rate, removed about 4 litres, based on beersmith from the last recipe, i'll give that a go, and correct from there, its a fruit beer, so if i end up a little bit under the gravity, the fruit will help to hide it... lol.

Practice makes perfect i guess.

[Fairlane]

By my calcs that is a mash water / grain ratio of over 3 which seems way too high.  Based on that you'd have to boil for over 4 hours to get the volume right...

 

My software calculates that at a ratio of approx 2.20 with efficiency at 70% and 2L of loss, you would get the following:

11.00L Mash water

19.27L Sparge water

4.18L water absorbed by grain

5.19L evaporated at boil   (80min boil approx 3.8L evaporated / hr)

 

Good luck with getting it sorted.

 

[mattd2]

3 ltr/kg is on the higher end but it is what I use. Just means using less sparge water.

I think the biggest problem is the total amount of water is way wrong.

16 strike, 6.75 spagre1 & 17 sparge2 ~ 39.75 litres - 4.18 absorbed = 35.57litrs in the pot. Which you are right would take a good 4ish hours to get down to the right volume.

With using 3 ltr/kg I usually then just sparge with the same volume for most mide range beers:

15 strike, 15 sparge ~ 30 - 4.18 = 25.8 and boil for an hour = roughly 20-21 into the fermenter with some trub left in the kettle.

I agree with Fairlane and yourself Rob.

Firstly know your gear, which takes a few beers usually,

Then make sure your water volumes going into the process are right, maybe drop your mash thickness down a bit and use less to sparge than you did on the first details posted. Basically if you are batch sparging and calculating the sparge volume on the fly you want to add enough sparge water to the mash after draining the first runnings to get you to your preboil volume - if you get 10 litres first runnings and you want 25 litres preboil add 15 lits sparge water (either in one go or split it 7.5 + 7.5).

[Crusader-Rob]

Yeah, I'm still on the higher end of that, but I'm hoping it'll be closer, I will post up what Beersmith Says tonight, about what would the estimate be using the new calculation I've put in for my equipment compared to what was used above.

I think I'm still on the high side for my next recipe. but I dont want to end up under volume...

 Comments have been made by a few fellow local brewers, that you get better efficiency using equal mash/sparge water, which is what I assume beersmith is doing, i lost 6 litres to grain, therefore add 6 litre and do your first run off. then sparge with your second lot, which was the 17. do you just mash and sparge accordingly on the fly? based on your collected volume? that  could work...

Speaking of Trub left in the kettle, what do you guys do?

[Ralph]

I tip it on the garden... is that what you mean?

How much trub left in the kettle I adjust depending on what sort of beer I am doing. A dark beer with not much hopping I will allow a litre or two. A beer with a bunch of hopping like an IPA or APA I will allow 3 to 4 L for all the hops sitting in the bottom.

[mattd2]

I think we found the problem, did beersmith tell you to adjuste for the absorbtion loss? The calculations in beersith should already be adjusting for absorbtion.

Beersmith should allow you to set you mash thickness (sorry I have never used it) which will effect the ratio between mash & sparge amounts. I am getting used to my gear (mostly temp losses when doughing in) so I although I try for a thickness around 2.5 ltrs/kg I end up mostly around 3 ltr/kg after having to add hot water to get my temp into the right place. So then I just wait till I know how much first runnings I get and adjust the sparge water to suit.

As for the trub, same as Ralph - it goes on the compost with the grain and grass clippings!

Or sometimes collect it, stick it in the fridge for the trub to settle and then get a hydro reading for my og (usually use a refractometer but this allows me to double check)

[Crusader-Rob]

Lol, yes and no. Its medium body batch sparge which says, mash, and at mash out add 6litres of 75 degree water then run off. then you add your sparge and run off again as normal. Are you saying I shouldn't worry about the  6 litres, it kinda makes sense i guess, but they do it cos of the better efficiency ive been told.

 

I'm talking about the trub from the kettle. Afte I chilled I poured into the fermenter, and because of the movement I have most if not all of it go into the fermenter. I don't have any taps etc. connected to my kettle, which i thought would be that loss. I guess maybe I should strain?

[Dougal]

Siphon the clear wort off the top, and try this:

http://www.forum.realbeer.co.nz/profiles/blogs/the-wort-recovery-pr...

[Ralph]

Splash out on an auto syphon from the homebrew shop Rob. Extremely handy piece of equipment.

I dont have taps either and simply siphon the wort off the top of the trub into the fermentation vessel.