Using prehopped kits in place of LME in extract brewing?

[Aidan Curran]

Here in NZ kits are such Coopers Original series are cheaper than cans of plain unhopped LME. So I was wondering how cans such as the Coppers Lager would work out for extract brewing. I've read somewhere that if you boil them, you boil off the isohops flavour and aroma, it that correct? Would you then have the equivalent of an unhopped LME (with some bittering)? Are there any negative effects of boiling those kits? Or maybe even the hops can be used to advantage, reducing the amount of additional hops required. Very interested in hearing your opinions & experience on this. Thanks, Aidan.

[Aidan Curran]

so what does a big pot cost and where's a good place to get one?

 

I guess electric stovetop is out of the question for full volume boil. What about bbq side burner with some extra support for the weight?

[denimglen]

My price is based on the kit from brewerscoop.co.nz.  Like Rev says, shop around and you'd be able to do it cheaper maybe.

 

BBQ side burners are generally pretty gutless, I'd look at a 3-ring burner from TM or Bunnings/Mitre10 if you want new.

 

Cooper's yeast is actually quite a good strain - I believe the same strain is sold by WL as a liquid.  Unfortunately it's storage conditions are never good so I would never put it in beer.  Use it as garden fertilizer.

 

On harvesting yeast - I would recommend this only if you are 100% sure your batches are 100% sanitary.  It's great to save 6 bucks not buying yeast, it's terrible to loose a $40 batch to bad sanitation though.

[Darrin Smith]

the Muntons IPA kit has SRm and IBU on can,, whic is about 30ibu

[John H]

I used to use Coopers kits as a good base before I moved to the dark side and started biab-ing. I liked the Cooper kits as the Original Series has no flavoring hops so whatever you add doesn't have to compete with anything. They are a little bland on their own but are good value to tweak.

 

Supermarkets sell the Coopers Original Series (as well as some of the International series ie Pale Ale) kits - starting around $10/tin.

 

Regarding bitterness Coopers website have the kit bitterness figures and using the formula below you can work out the  bitterness you will get (see below): If using 2 cans of extract just double the top line. Another tip is to increase the water to say 25L to reduce the bitterness slightly.

 

Also - lower bitterness kits like Pale Ale / Lager are ok to double up - keep away from Real Ale (too bitter to toucan). As mentioned elsewhere preferably add some late hops and/or specialty grains to improve the flavor. Also - some decent yeast (i.e S05 etc) also works a treat.

 

Tried a mates effort recently - even though he added some fwesh hops I couldn't get past the banana flavor coming from the yeast. eew!!!

Product bitterness x 1.7 / Brew volume = Total bitterness before fermentation

As an example, if a brew is made with Mexican Cerveza up to a volume of 23 litres:
270 x 1.7 / 23 = 20 IBU (International Bitterness Units)

 

 

[Aidan Curran]

Thanks Richard, denimglen & John for the detailed responses. I will definitely give it a go. Is S05 yeast the same as US05? What do you guys think of the yeast that comes with the Coopers kits?

 

I'm planning to do something along the lines of a Macs Sassy Red for my next brew - I was going to use 3kg of Halycon DME but might try it with a can of Coopers Lager and half the DME.

[Tilt]

Yep - S05 is the same as US05.

I relegate my Coopers can yeast to the bin or making ginger beer.  You can never be sure how well its been stored in the lid of the can - and the end product isn't anywhere near as good as using well stored fresh dried yeast.

A Coopers Lager kit plus some DME and a bit of Carared or similar steeped crystal would set you well on the way to making a Sassy red.  Not sure on the hops you'd need but post a query on the Recipe Advice thread and someone might pipe up.

 

[Aidan Curran]

The main flavour hops are Motueka (aka Sazz B, hence the Sazzy Red). Got a recipe for 'Slutty Red' on aussie home brewers which I'm loosely following.

 

I've harvested some US05 which saves me $6 each brew. Used it on my last batch and seems to have worked well - my quickest starting, most active and longest fermention yet - and from the SG sample seems like it will taste good.

[Tilt]

Been playing about with this option lately too.

The time saved with kits and bits plus the $11.50 1.7kg cans of Coopers goop from Pakn Save convinced me to have a crack seeing what I could make of them.

As Richard says there's good info on colour and bitterness values for kits for many brands - check out the spreadsheet below for estimates of both in 23L batches

The consensus from other forums seems to be to use kits as close to LME as possible (light colour and low flavour/aroma/bitterness) and either steep or partial mash and use your own hop schedule to add complexity, head retention, freshness and decent hop flavour/ aroma.

I've used Coopers lager, draught, real ale and the european lager - and would recommend the standard lager as it gives the least of its own malt and hop character and is easy to build on with other fermentables and hops.

I agree with Denimglen re the unknown specialties factor - which is why I've stayed away from the darker, more highly flavoured kits and prefer to control and add my own specialties.

IMO the bitterness I get out of a can tends to be a wee bit lower than the stated values on the spreadsheet and isn't harsh at all - did a "toucan" lager plus bits amber ale a while ago which in theory had 52 IBU with the two cans plus late additions of NZ Cascade, Mot and Pacifica - in the end it tastes more like 40.  So I now bump 3-5IBU off the stated value of each can when I'm calculating bitterness.

My process is I'll do a 15L 30 minute partial boil with the steep/minimash wort plus a bit of extract or DME to get optimal hop utilisation, use a late hop schedule to add any more bitterness needed plus flavour and aroma -  and then just add the kit at flameout so I avoid too much caramelisation.  Chill and dilute to correct OG/ desired volume  then pitch yeast.  Pretty happy with the results so far but have stuck with Blondes, Pale ales, bitters and ambers.  Timewise it great - the main reason for me, I knock over a brew in a couple of hours.

 

[Andrew Dixon]

Thanks for the useful info Tilt (and others).  I do 12L BIAB batches, but I've thought about using a Coopers kit to "make up the difference" to allow me to make high gravity beers where the grain bill would otherwise be too big for me to handle on my equipment.  This info should come in handy.

 

The Coopers kits at Pak n Save seem to be by far the cheapest way to get LME.  It seems odd to me that you can buy what is essentially a 1.7kg can of LME for about $11, but to buy a 1.5kg of unhopped Coopers extract you have to pay about $20.  I guess there must be much less demand for the plain LME.

 

Thanks

Andy

[Tilt]

Thats pretty much the definition of a partial mash brew Andrew - I'm a bit of a fan lately.  I'd be nterested in exchanging experiences of partial mash success stories (as well as "lessons learnt")

Does that mean your system is limited to a 12L boil?

Whats on your to brew list?

[Andrew Dixon]

Yeah, I use a 13L brew pot so I'm limited to a 10-12L boil and I just make it up to 12L in the fermenter with cold water.  According the Can You Mash It calculators (http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml) I should be able to mash almost 4kg of grain which I think equates to a beer of between 1.060 and 1.070 at my efficiency.

My next couple of planned brews are a sweet stout and an APA both of which I can do as all grain with no problems.  It would only be if I wanted to make a barleywine or imperial stout or something like that that I would need to add LME.  Or if I decide to make a 23L batch with a partial boil and fermenter top up.

For the time being I'm happy making the 1/2 batches as I'm just getting started and I'm keen to make as many beer as possible and experiment with ingredients.

 

Andy

[Tilt]

Ah yep - I get it,so you're doing greater numbers of small batches to experiment and build your knowledge -  a great way to try out heaps of brews and get your head around what each of the variables brings - without having to deal with 23L of drainpour if the brew gods aren't being kind!

Partial mashes will come I guess when you decide on your "house brews" and want to do bigger batches - by which stage you might be upgrading to a full size AG system anyway :)!

My partial mashes are restricted to about a 2kg grist - so still reliant on some other form of fermentable to make up the gravity.

I haven't done any Imperials yet - but you've got me thinking about it now using a similar methods as your own with small batch sizes

Good to hear others are experimenting with smaller grists.  Cheers and good luck!