Help me with my hopping ( Please !!)

[Ged]

Guys..Just sampled a couple of the latest American additions to beerstore with Rusty CChurch..

Opened up the Firestone 'Union Jack' Walker and really enjoyed it. We both thought it was very like Epic but a bit more body ?? My nose and paletter are frankly shite so I'm doing everything I can to improve them..but I really thought this was another Epic...Does that concur with other tastings?

My question is how the heck do they get that ongoing aroma hit and 'hop' taste in every sip ? I have tried dry hopping, late additions, flame out additions etc etc etc...but nothing comes close to the Epic or indeed Firestone delivery. Is it a timing issue or a volume of hop issue or indeed something else....Any clues or pointers much appreciated as I want to do a beer just like this next....

On another note I felt the Anchor Steam Beer ( maybe served a little too warm ) was a close second to a can of tennents lager...Really disappointed...Expected a lot more but all I got was the smell and taste of the tenth pint of the night in a dingy club when you are thinking of making a sneaky exit...

Thanks for the tips..No doubt there will be a few.. Pliny the Elder and blind pig at the weekend :)

Ta

Ged

[Ally Mcg]

I'd suggest dry hopping.
Take your usual hop schedule then half your bittering hops and add them sub 15 mins. Then dry hop as much as you you hopped in the >15 minute regime. Give it a whirl - I'm trying the same with my latest brew

[JoKing]

I just had another FWUJ. This is good stuff... Epic is monumentally hoppy for its strength... big up's go out to Luke for comparisons like this.

FWUJ is a US style IPA... it pushes the hops and malt quite a way. Epic isn't an IPA... but it still maintains prominant flavour - it is a firecracker. Luke should be really chuffed that comparisons are being made to these beers that beerstore bought in. It proves that what he is aming for in his beer is actually being acheived, and appreciated by the consumer.

So... Ged... Hops aye? You want a FWUJ at home? Here are some answers for you. Your selection of hops is critical. I'll probably get some flack for saying stuff like this - because NZ hops are on the cusp of being great... but, they aren't US hops. Not even the Cascade we grow over here will cut the mustard - I believe it has to do with argonomics.

Anyhow... FWUJ is brewed with Simcoe for bittering Centennial, Cascade and Columbus (Tomahawk c/o Yakima) which are essential for carrying this type of flavour.... Epic (I believe) is Imported US Cascade for Bittering, Flavour and Aroma... dont quote me on it though. It has to do with the oils in the hops, and the properties that they carry - in NZ, our hops are very goood for carrying distinct flavours... but not the same type of Citrus, Pine and Spice that the FWUJ varieties carry... so...

If I were to replicate this type of beer... this is where I'd be looking:

90mins boil...

7% CaraPils
7% Caramel Malt (Cara, CaraMunnich 2 etc)
86% Pale Malt

50IBU of Simcoe, boiled for 60mins

30 grams each of Centennial, Cloumbus, Cascade for 15mins
30 grams each of Centennial, Cloumbus, Cascade for 0mins
50 grams each of Centennial, Cloumbus, Cascade for a 1 week long dry hop at ambient temp.

The other essential part of this equation is being able to cool your batch of beer very quickly after the boil... this really goes a long way to ensure these oils are "trapped" in the beer. It's a bit more complicated than that - but trust me when I say that you should cool your wort to below 40 degrees as fast as you can. In my brewery, we do it within 5 mins: and I'm proud of that!

The dry hops are bigger than FWUJ... but I think the beer would be better with a bigger dry hop.

Thats enough from me... I'm off to bed.

Cheers Ged.

[Mike Neilson]

Well Spoken JoKing my thoughts exactly if you want more!! use more!! dont be scarred as there not!! Hops Hops and more Hops and Big Malt to ride the Hops out!!

[Ged]

Thx Joking for the detail information mate. Really appreciate that...I was dry hopping in the fermenter but my dry hop was around 40 grams. It tends to give me green beer for the first couple of days then by the time I rack into the keg - approx 7 days - I have clear beer and a green yeast cake ! Should I be dry hopping the keg as well??

In total I guess I used approx 100 grams of pellets per brew...Looking at your calcs above I see you are using approx 300 grams + so no doubt thats another issue for me..sheer volume...

My chiller knocks the temp from 100 down to below 40 in approx 12-15 minutes...Am planning on making a new one soon and will take a squiz at yours...

I have about 300 grams of imported cascade left and was planning on 3 brews with it but guess it'll now do one :)

Fab work..Cheers

Ged

[Mike Neilson]

150g Pale Ale
180-250+, IPA
Shit Loads IIPA

[Rusty Chch]

Ged, I've had a look through Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers and without getting too stuck into the chapters, it seems that Ally's spot on, more hops later in the boil is the generally the theme.

Some of the additions he mentions go in after the chiller and the irish moss.

I'll drop the book round at the weekend if you like, it'll melt your head though!

[Ged]

cheers mate..It would be good to have a read through...

[James P]

Bugger, maybe I should have gotten into the Colombus buy too...

Oh well Amarillo beers for a wee while shouldn't kill me....

[Reviled]

You should brew Dr Smurtos golden ale - probably right up your ally James, not too offensively bitter but nice and quaffable!

[Stu McKinlay]

Dry hopping and late hoppiong can impart completely different characteristics.
Check out the Jamil article at http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm as a good start.


As an advanced thought (one that I've not played around with myself), that is hardly ever mentioned anywhere, is that a slightly warmer ferment can actually accentuate the hop character.

See the Wyeast description of 1272 (American Ale 2):
...Ferment at warmer temperatures to accentuate hop character with intense fruitiness, or ferment cool for clean, light citrus character...

This is the yeast that seems to be most commonly use by NZ craft breweries making pale ales. I believe Epic uses it (Luke might confirm) and I know that Croucher Pale Ale was using it and Mac's Brewjolais did (the latter fermented at 22c according to Ally the head brewer).



You can make a really hoppy beer with 3g/L... or a not so hoppy one with 6g/L.
It is all about balance.
I made an Imperial Porter with 20g/L... the hops are not as prominent as beers I've made with 5g/L.

[Reviled]

Sh*t I reckon you might be onto something there Stu - Ive allways noticed a bigger percieved bitterness/hoppiness when my fermenters crept up to 22-24*c with S-05 as opposed to a clean ferment at 18* but I allways put that down to the stone fruit esters that S-05 gives off? Maybe?

Interesting...

[Stu McKinlay]

And I've always thought S05 seems a little more like 1272 than 1056.