Recipe advice

[Nick Good]

Can somebody give me some advice on this recipe. It is a Montieths original cone or should I say, was.

I started with the recipe from AHB but found it to be to caramel so tried lightening the crystal malt but I raised the pale chocolate a notch to try and compensate a bit. I almost had it but the last brew is a bit sherry like. Could this be the chocolate?

3.7 UK pale

.46 German wheat

.3 UK crystal

.06 UK pale choc

Original recipe was:

3.7 Golden promise

.46 wheat malt

.23 dark crystal

.046 pale choc

I also added .2 carapils in last brew.

I have tried this beer very early after bottling so haven't given it a chance really.

Nottingham yeast BIAB no chill.

[Peter Church]

To me I would be surprised if a pretty small change in choc percentage would be the sole reason for the change, its possible I guess. I use Maris Otter in my version of this and also have a lower crystal malt and high choc %. 

84% Maris

10% wheat

2.2% pale choc

3.8% dark crystal

your crystal % is 3% higher than mine, then add a bit more residual sweetness from the carapils.. It maybe a combination of changing your base malt and the increase in crystal malt have combined for the sherry effect. maybe try the WLP007 yeast to dry it out a bit more. I am pretty happy with mine using the WLP002/ Safale 04 style yeast. 

What were your gravity numbers

You could to do a couple of experiments, a split ferment using a couple of yeast alternatives,

or try a different base malt and or a reduced crystal malt. 

[Nick Good]

Thanks for your input. At least there is someone else out there doing it.

I was using Golden promise base malt but they didn't have any last time.

Gravity = 1040 and 1008

Also I didn't temp control this brew. I have only recently done this with a bar fridge and am getting some good results with a golden ale so don't want to risk a dud.

Does your beer have an over powering caramel flavour? Also do you bottle and how long do you condition? Do dark malts take a while to meld out?

[Peter Church]

good call on oxidation below from Kevin if it is sherry flavor, and also the fresh ingredients.

i keg, everything transferred under C02

definitely get the temp control thing sorted, if you want repeat ability on any brews that is the most important step,

I will be doing a rebrew of the original ale in 2 weeks, need to stuff the fermenter full of hops first. out at the moment but it is a good one to have on tap for the non hop heads, will send you a bottle for a comparison if you like in a month.

[Nick Good]

I get all my grain at Brewers Coop and they have a huge turnover so always fresh.

 I only have a small bar fridge with temp control and I have been using it for a good golden ale and because of this I didn't want to put a Montieths through it until I got the recipe close to something that I like.

Even though I bottle with sugar I have had some really good beers but some spectacular disasters as well. I have brewed high hopped brews and I like them but by the 30ith bottle I am getting a bit Motueka-ed out and just want a normal-ish beer and a cold Montieths has always been a beer that I like.

When you say ' a rebrew of the original ' do you mean the proportions that you gave above? Because I might have a crack at this soon. Thanks so much for your kind offer, another member Paul Finney sent me a couple of samples way back and is the sole reason that I am all graining now.

[Kevin Sharp]

Sherry notes usually indicate oxidation. Unless any of your ingredients were particularly stale it's more likely to be a process issue than related to the recipe. The small amount of chocolate will just be a colour adjustment. Obviously I haven't had a Monteiths since they were colonised by DB, but I don't remember it having much colour. I'm surprised it needs the chocolate.

[Brian Sheaff]

Hi Nick

How did you get on with the Montieths Original Ale recipe.
Any good. ?

[Nick Good]

Hi Brian,

I just couldn't quite nail it. However I have refined my brewing since and now use a wort chiller, I also stopped aerating over 26C  which so many brewers must be doing without knowing. I was basically getting a brew right by luck.

The recipe came from the AHB recipe data base and has a lot of very good feed back so I should probably try it again with my better methods. But I have almost perfected an Emersons Book binder which is quite similar to Montieths but slicked up with some Smouldering hops c/o this forum.

Good luck if you try it and please let me know if you do. Some of my better try's were promising

All the best..

[Cain Harland]

Hey Nick whats the deal with aerating over 26C. I had assumed the threshold was much higher than that and sometimes ground water is over 26C so no chance or getting lower before transfer to fermenter.

[Nick Good]

Hi Cain

that's what I thought as well. Also , when I was kit and kilo-ing I thought it was a good idea to fire that cold water in there after I had melted the goo in boiling water sometimes there was a big fluffy head on it to toss the yeast on. It always had 'that homebrew taste".

So clock forward a few decades and I have been all grain brewing without chilling. I would finish the boil and leave it long enough to be able to put plastic wrap over the top of the pot then the lid and some weight. Next day I would use a jug too transfer to FV. Pour from a height plenty of air good for the yeast right? Sometimes I would get a decent brew and sometimes it had the same off flavour, sort of metallic. I asked on forums and got plenty of ideas but mainly standard stuff. Infection I thought! Clean and sanitize everything over and over again. Still got it. Just depended on the temp during the night.

Finally found the answer on a forum site and it was like seeing the light. I thought it was Palmer but not and I cant for the life of me remember which one. But I had to convert F to C and the number was 25.8C. Since then My brews are all good, I did get a wort chiller and an auto syphon and no air gets mixed on the way to the FV. Some Guru must be able to explain it but all I know is that it works.

[Cain Harland]

Interesting, you have me worried.

Usually I whirlpool down to 30c ish before transferring to the fermenter via my counterflow chiller and venturi aerator pipe (bottling pipe with angled pin angled holes in it) and get down to pitching temp or pretty close.

But my last brew was a lager and with no whirlpool hops and no chance of getting it down to 11c pitching temp with 25c ground water I shortened the whirlpool stage a lot before I transferred to the fermenter via CFC and aerator, aerating at 35c ish then into the fermentation fridge for about 20 hours to get down to 11c before pitching.

I'm assuming on those metallic brews of yours pitching rates and temps were all good? I think I have had the off taste you speak of but blamed pitching rate.

[Crusader-Rob]

interesting. Sometimes Diacetyl, can manifest itself as an overly sweet carmel malt tones, not butterscotch as such, but its somethingto think about i guess.

personally for me, i do not believe hot-sdie aeration Which is what you guys are talking about)

I really much of an issue on a homebrewers scale. 

[Cain Harland]

Hot side aeration not being a problem on a home brew scale makes sense when you're talking a bit of splasing transfer from mash tun to kettle. The question of how warm beer can be when you intentionally aerate the crap out of it a different thing. More info would be good.