The Making Cider Thread

[Ralph]

From a conversation that was hidden in the conical fermentors thread... I thought I would bring it out into the open over here for a bit more discussion.

Permalink Reply by Ralph on May 6, 2012 at 8:49pm

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260L of apple juice! Damn fine work. Did you hijack a crate of apples?? Nice work on the conicals as well!!

Permalink Reply by Liam Callaghan on May 7, 2012 at 7:13am

Ordered a crate to be delivered from Hawkes Bay (25c/kg).  Unfortunately the guy I bought my ute off had the foresight to glue the canopy on the back so I had to handball each and every one from the crate to the back.  Gave each one a little polish of course...and ate a few!

Bubbling away like a mad thing, absolutely stoked!

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Permalink Reply by Hillman on May 9, 2012 at 8:27am

What yeast are you using for the cider? And what are you doing with 260L of it?? The conical looks awesome.

Permalink Reply by Grant R Baker on Friday

That's a supply of cider. What are you storing that in after fermentation...? 50l kegs?

 

SS looks pretty good... got me thinking about stand, lid, ball/butterfly valves etc etc.. but will wait to see yer plastic 35l model.

Permalink Reply by Liam Callaghan yesterday

Hey Grant,  Its a big lump of cider alright, really happy with it so far too, great taste.  Was afraid it would end up thin and incipid but its far from it.  Might have to bulk the % and add a little sugar syrup depending on how far it goes.  There is enough to experiment a little.

Stoked with the Saider (Cider with Saison yeast - name coined by Raffe before I get into trouble :p)

I used a mix of yeast Hillman.  SN9 wine yeast, Nottingham ale yeast and Farmhouse Ale (Belgian). with a good dose of yeast nutrient and a dab of olive oil as I didn't have much chance to oxygenate it after pasturising.  They all had a good 3-4" of foam on top within 24 hours, the Nottingham went nuts!

 

I'll follow up with the SS conical specs and price shortly, will do a one off deal on the first 10 to get some out there and get some responses.  Took it in to see Ben Middlemiss late last week and got a really good review.  Awesome wielding, was very impressed.  I'm trying to find time to get it into show Ian Ramsey and Steve from Hallertau but life is getting in the way...

 

You'll like the handle on the plastic ones Grant, some really nice additions to get with it if you need or want.  If you had the energy you could swing it over your head with this handle!

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Permalink Reply by Tilt 18 hours ago

Interested in your thoughts on the different yeasts there Liam once they've had a chance to do their thing - I'm planning a cider or two over winter - the lame arsed bottled juice  type though - and wondering about which yeast, if any, will leave a little body and "appleyness" behind.

Permalink Reply by Ralph 18 hours ago

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Plenty of opinions on the internet about yeast for cider. Champagne yeasts often get used and is what I used 2 years ago but tend to go quite dry. S04 has been recommended too and I tried that last year... still goes dry and does not leave much body. I have gone back to Champagne yeast (dried packets of Lavellin from the homebrew shop).

Only way to get body into store bought apple juice is to add something in that will not fully ferment. People recommend adding crab apples to normal apple juice to give enough tannins etc to add a bit of body and a bit of interesting flavour, otherwise apple juice has mostly fermentable sugars and will ferment most of the way through.

Another way to get some body into your cider is to use wild yeasts as these will often not ferment fully... quite a large risk of making a whole lot of cider vinegar tho...

For general information including things you may want to add to get the right acid level etc have a read through this http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scrumpy/cider/cider.htm

Permalink Reply by Tilt 7 hours ago

Thanks Ralph - great tips - always keen to hear other's personal experience re cider brewing. 

Agreed there's plenty of opinions out there - but I'm never sure which ones to trust.  Over time I've put together a summary of suggestions for good cider making that I've heard and seen on various sites from what seem to be reputable sources.  It goes something like this:

• Use lower attenuating Ale yeast for an English cider flavour, Champagne, Kitzinger or Hock (wine) yeasts for Normandy styles (Apple wine or Apfelwein)
• Ferment around 15degrees long and low (10-12deg OK for some yeasts depending on recommended temps)
• Stay sub 6% ETOH
• Add crab apple or heritage variety juice to increase tannins and non fermentables
• Condition 4-6 months at low temps (15deg) – possible time for malo lactic fermn
• Stop ferment at desired FG (around 1005 for some body) with metabisulphate and potassium sorbate
• Fermentis stopping above 1005 are usually “stuck” and need rousing, repitching and possible addition of nutrients
• Adjust with Malic acid to lower or CaC03 to raise pH – ideal pH 3.2-3.8 for fermentation
• Fine and rack a couple of times to reduce yeast load and slow fermentation.
• Rack around 2 weeks post cessation of fermentn activity
• Backsweeten if needed with lactose – but better to stop fermentation instead.
• Allow malo lactic fermentation to take place at around 15deg 3+months post primary fermentation
• English cider carbonate 1-1.5 vols, Normandy cider carbonate 2+ with champagne yeast
• Minimise O2 exposure post primary

Permalink Reply by Tilt 7 hours ago

And this thread on homebrewtalk is worthwhile to see the results of another bloke's extensive yeast and fermentables trials in the US - but I reckon its always good to hear what NZers are doing with local ingredients.  

This thread http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experimen...

[Tilt]

Good move Ralph.

Here's a link to another Realbeer discussion on  a similar topic Preservative free apple juice cider to keep related threads together.

[Ralph]

In reply to Tilt

• Use lower attenuating Ale yeast for an English cider flavour, Champagne, Kitzinger or Hock (wine) yeasts for Normandy styles (Apple wine or Apfelwein)

I have used both Champagne and English Ale yeast. In my experience the low attenuation thing does not seem to make much difference to the finished cider when almost all the sugars in apple juice are fermentables?

• Ferment around 15degrees long and low (10-12deg OK for some yeasts depending on recommended temps)

That sounds ok, but to my mind if using a reasonably clean sort of yeast you will get little yeast character at this temperature?? I would think some yeast character would be beneficial? If using wild yeast then this may be good advice? 

• Stay sub 6% ETOH

Depending on the season and apple varieties used then this is just straight apple juice... 

• Add crab apple or heritage variety juice to increase tannins and non fermentables

I have previously used heritage varieties and had ok results, but still ending without much body etc. This year I have added crabs to the mix and will see if it is any better.

• Condition 4-6 months at low temps (15deg) – possible time for malo lactic fermn

This sounds almost correct. From what I have read if you keep the cider over the winter, when the temperatures get back above about 15 deg in the spring then you are likely to get a malo-lactic fermentation which should smooth the flavour of the cider. Might be important if you have too many acidic apples in your mix!

• Stop ferment at desired FG (around 1005 for some body) with metabisulphate and potassium sorbate

If you are looking for a cider with a bit more body and a bit of sweetness then this would be the way to achieve it. I have let my ciders go through to completely dry and still enjoy them.

• Fermentis stopping above 1005 are usually “stuck” and need rousing, repitching and possible addition of nutrients

Probably correct. I have not had a cider ferment stop high with added yeasts. I would think this would be a problem if using natural yeast ferment tho.

• Adjust with Malic acid to lower or CaC03 to raise pH – ideal pH 3.2-3.8 for fermentation

3.2 to 3.8 is about the range I have seen for a balanced cider. 

• Fine and rack a couple of times to reduce yeast load and slow fermentation.

Leaving on the yeast too long could introduce unwanted flavours from yeast autolysis, although a little of this may be desirable to get more flavours in your cider.

• Rack around 2 weeks post cessation of fermentn activity
• Backsweeten if needed with lactose – but better to stop fermentation instead.
• Allow malo lactic fermentation to take place at around 15deg 3+months post primary fermentation
• English cider carbonate 1-1.5 vols, Normandy cider carbonate 2+ with champagne yeast
• Minimise O2 exposure post primary

Yeh... ok. Lactose probably has a distinct flavour that might not sit right in cider?

Reducing O2 exposure is always important.

Carbonation volumes are a little to personal taste... I have done both high and low and prefer high (probably because it gives some perception of body in a dry cider).

[Tilt]

Mate - great response.  Thanks for sharing your insights here.

I'm interested in methods for controlling fermentation in ciders to give them body, flavour and character.  From my limited experience and reading I understand some of the best ciders end up preserving apple flavours and body because they provide a low oxygen, low nutrient environment for the yeast.  Couple this with a lower ferment temp and possibly a low pitch rate and - as with some Belgian strains -  they become stressed, produce additional flavour compounds but also reach their fermentation limits earlier than if they had ideal growth environment.  Techniques like racking repeatedly, using sorbate and metabisulphate and keeving add to this effect. 

What sort of experience have folk had with achieving this?  Any on-the-ground advice on doing this in the home brewery?

[Glynn cleaver]

I've been making cider this year as i still have not got my all grain setup finished and can wait till my hops come good next year .

The apples I've used from our trees started at 1.065 and finished at .950 so is dry as and should give a kick .

I've been collecting wild apples from up Arthers Pass and just pressed 1 gall of wild apple juice starting grav of 1.055 

so far this year I've made 25 lit of cider .

All pressed with a home made press will build a better one for next pressing as I'm on the promise of two trees worth of apples .

I also have been using champagne yeast

[Ralph]

Nice! I munched my 130kg of apples using an old insinkerator... which gave a good pulp, but the insinkerator kept overheating and the overload switch made it cut out...

Then pressed in a hydropress. Italian thing where you connect a hose, which inflates a rubber bladder which presses the pomace against a screen and squeezes the juice out. I have about 55L in the fermentor going hard at the moment!

Next year I am going to look into something else to munch the apples that will not cut out from overheating...

[Glynn cleaver]

I just got a insinkerator and tub if this bug bites I may look at a disk pulper the type with the s/s screws set on a angle ,it's so easy and it's early days yet but the signs are good .

I'm thinking about priming my bottles with some apple juice to carb ? any thoughts.

I was thinking I would have to boil it first one to kill the nasties and to up the sugar make like a syrup if I know the gravity of the juice then reduce it down 

[Liam Callaghan]

Not sure what happened to my post I just wrote...

 

Anyway, again, I got most of my yeast tips from Richard Jack along with his press, which is awesome by the way!

http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm

From the fair bit of research I did this was the best site I found for a fully technical view on making cider.

Body can be added with tannin too, have a good read of that and you wont go far wrong.

We tasted ours on Tuesday arvo and it is a blinder!  Had a taste off with Bulmers, Old Mout Scrumpy and our Saider and Cider with the SN9 yeast.  Bulmers was easily the worst.  Cold and wet, refreshing but paled into nothing against our ciders.

Old Mout from Nelson was a really nice drop but was still pale next to the SN9 cider.  Pretty close though.  That was straight from the fermentor too, cloudy as haha!  Mick was pouring it from the fermentor by the pint it was that good!

[Ralph]

Oooh lots of reading to do at that link. I have tannined this years brew up a bit so that should be a good start! Interesting reading about dropping out nutrients so the yeast stresses out early and finishes a bit high... that might be a good aim for next year, but is a bit late this year!

Could you remind me what the Saider and what the SN9 yeasts were? Good to hear it is tasting promising. My benchmark for tasting at the moment would have to be the Peckhams 2011 vintage cider. Damn tasty!

[Liam Callaghan]

Yeah it's a cracking site full of good techy information.  Quite a bit of stuff on yeast health and food.

I left my apple pulp overnight with a mix of pectolase to break down the pectin.  This is not covered so much on that website though but its more in line with how the French make it.  Funny I never knew the French made cider but apparently its very popular there.  Once juiced I pasturised it with the boil kettles of the brewery in 90 litre batches and chilled to 20 with the chiller coil.  This would have driven out most of the oxygen and because of the size of my fermentors I wasn't able to shake the bejesus out of them like normal so I added a little olive oil into the boil to provide the elements the yeast need to reproduce.  Can't remember its name now.  Yeast was pumping in all four fermentors within 24 hours.

I made a really strong tannin solution from loose tea.  About 1 tablespoon per 4 litres of finished juice.  It smelled like cats p iss and took two pints of beer to clear the taste from my mouth.  I reckon its made a huge difference to the finished product.  You can add tannin at any time too, so if you find its a little incipid when you are done pour a litre out and slowly add tannin to work out how much you need to add.  Not so easy in bottles of course...

SN9 is a wine yeast, came highly recommended and thats the one we tasted the other arvo, great stuff.  Not going to add much flavour or anything its pretty neutral.

Saider is the cider fermented using saison yeast.  Name was not coined by me unfortunately, Raffe beat me to it and used a TM afterwards, so I probably owe him money now :p.  Tastes really nice though, both the apple and fruity notes from the yeast sit well together.  

I will try some cider with a small addition of sloes next and make some Slider!

Looking forward to catching up with Raffe, Richard and Chris in a few weeks and having a cider tasting session.  Sounds like they have been making some really out there varieties, including ageing in oak barrels.

[Ralph]

hmmm tannin from tea sounds like an interesting idea... I may try that if at the end of the ferment I think I want more tannin. I remember seeing something on that site about how to measure tannin and might have to look into that.

Pasutisation sounds like something that you would have to be very careful with? It sounds like heating can easily wreck some of the good flavour. What temp did you take it up to?

Sounds like going light on yeast/nutrients/oxygen etc might be a good thing for cider?? 

After reading stuff on there I am thinking of lowering the ferment on mine down to 14 or 15 deg on the off chance this might mean the yeast drops out earlier?

[Glynn cleaver]

Hi any one know if you can prime after malo lactic fermentation or will I need more yeast as well .

I was thinking of using 400 mils of apple juice at 1.055 and reducing it down to a syrup .

How cold can I let the cider go as I was thinking about putting my fermenters in the shed and inside it can get to freezing .

  Thanks for any help

[Ralph]

Traditional cider was fermented at ambient temperatures. I think that as long as you keep it warm enough to get a good ferment started you could then leave it in the shed and it should keep fermenting when the temperature is warm enough and will just go dormant while it is cold. My cider is still bubbling away at 12 deg which is where it has got to with ambient shed temperature here in Chch.

If you leave your cider in larger vessels over winter and then want to bottle in the spring after a malo-lactic fermentation I would think you would still be able to do so without adding more yeast... but it may take a long time to carbonate? It may be safer/more consistent if you add some more yeast at that stage?

If doing this it seems like racking the clear cider off the yeast in the bottom of the vessel a couple of times is a good idea. Apparently leaving it sitting on the yeast can lend itself to bad flavour notes, although my bottle conditioned cider was still tasting pretty good after 9 months in the bottle with a yeast cake in the bottom.

You used to be able to buy apple juice concentrate? This would be easier than boiling apple juice down to create a syrup?