Prices

[Steve]

Hi all,

Just wondering...what sort of margins do the big breweries / bottle stores / supermarkets get on beer? I see alot of 500ml bottles for $6 and up...Emersons up there at $9 or so. What are they paying for these beers? How many people are paying these amounts for single bottles?

Thanks!

[Greig McGill]

Hillman, I read your last paragraph and all I saw was "some people can't control themselves, so we have to tax people who produce something".

I can't stomach that argument. If I make something, and some other idiot misuses it, please charge the idiot, not me. I realise that the concept of individual responsibility has all but died in this country (and most others) as a result of years of institutionalised brainwashing, but I'll stick to my principles, and they say it's wrong to make someone else pay for my choices.

[Hugh Grierson]

Yes Greig!

how about an A&E charge for munts who are pissed, disruptive and bleeding ?

$200 instant fines for anyone caught fighting/smashing/pissing/throwing?

Friday night Queen St is a fucking nightmare, worst (for me) is the Fat Slag brigade.

Last weekend a few big females had a massive RTD chucking swearing scrap out side McDs, the boys were pretty classy in comparison.

[Tilt]

I'd guess producers pass those tax costs on anyway - whether its to the idiots or people who can control themselves. 

Yep Hugh - the other way to do this is to hang the charge on the behaviour not the product - but buggared if I know how that works practically. 

 

[Reece]

I see my local countdown is having a bit of a deal on some craft beers (Epic pale ale, 8 wired, stoke an the like).

[Greig McGill]

*cough* privatise healthcare *cough*

Now to hide while all the lefties try to kill me...

[Christian]

I'm very pro privatisation if it would shut the healthists up and let me drink my beer in peace. P.S. you should get that cough looked at - hope you haven't been smoking!

[Tilt]

Could be done, but in the best overseas examples that option wastes bucketloads on ticket clipping administrators and leaves people most needing care (the poor in general have the worst health) with the lowest level of access.  Not sure that'd solve the problem.

[Jacob Plasmeyer]

User pays, its the way to go, imo.

[Hillman]

You pass the cost of that tax onto the consumers, so you're not paying it really. The cost to you is the barrier to purchase, which reduces your market. In the case of craft beer it's probably not a good thing in that it hinders a part of the industry where growth could be beneficial in reducing the problems caused by a disfunctional drinking culture, although I've been to Hashigo Zake on a Friday night and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that those idiots are also hanging out in "cult beer bars."

And if it were a matter of a few idiots who can't control themselves then you might have a point. But the majority of crimes committed in NZ have alcohol involved somewhere along the way, and the person doing the drinking is not always the victim. Domestic violence, random assaults, criminal damage, and rape are often connected to alcohol use. Not to mention drunk driving. Yes, some idiots can't control themselves. That's a fact of life. Their inability to control themselves is not only a matter of their own personal trips to prison/the emergency room. They also hurt other people. Sometimes they kill them. 

[Greig McGill]

Sorry, my comment was a result of not removing my brewer hat before speaking as a consumer! ;) Yes, we (brewer hat) pass on the cost imposed by excise tax to the consumer. The cost of this to us is that we sell less than we might otherwise. Now in my specific case, that doesn't matter. Because Brewaucracy is so teeny (4hL) and we share a brewery with two other companies, so can only brew one batch per month, we don't really have an issue moving all our product, but over the entire industry, the cost of those pints not purchased due to the tax-inflated price adds up. It's a cost.

As to your second point, there are laws against violence. Don't let emotion lead you to the "ban the cause of violence" argument. There are way too many, and alcohol is just one, and one massively overblown by the enemies of the industry. Even if it weren't overblown, the reality is you can't (and I constantly argue shouldn't) try to solve social problems via regulation. The law of unintended consequences always bites you in the ass. There's also the question of where it ends. We ban drinking because people might drive and kill someone. Best we also ban billboards and pretty girls (or guys depending on your gender and interests) for a start, as they are a leading cause of accidents due to distracted drivers. :)

Some people will always be stupid. Innocent people will always suffer as a result. Regulation can't make that go away, and while it's always implemented with the best of intentions, we are emotional creatures, and "bad stuff happening" always makes us want "someone" (the govt) to do something about it. The only solution I can think of which can ever come close to mitigating (never fixing) this is to always try to make people bear the costs of their own actions, rather than the actions of others.

[Stu McKinlay]

Bearing the cost of their own actions...  How do they do that?

Now, Greig, I know you know that I think you're a smart guy, a hard working guy, and that your opinion is often right... in fact probably more right than wrong. And I'm into total agreement that we are over regulated and I'm sure you know that I am very liberal. But I never see a plan from that (nano)corner of politcal universe. Just a lot of complaining about regulation.

Are your proposing that the person who commits a crime, with or without alcohol being consumed, either pays some sort of monetary reparation or goes to prison (or somewhere in between)? and if they go to prison, I'm guessing the prison is private. Who funds it? do the prisoners work to pay their "board"?  If so, what if they refuse to work? And who chooses what that initial reparation is? Is the victim involved? If so, we'll mostly need some sort of arbitration... who pays for that? Must be the offender, surely. But it is quite likely they don't have the money too pay (because they spent it all at Hashigo Zake, of course). And who pays for the police that attended the scene of the offence? Do we all have one personal one each? Or are there several companies competing for our "police insurance"?

Can you come down to Wellington, at a time where we are not working hard at some big beer festival, and discuss this over many Clockwatchers, Bookbinders, 3Boys Best Bitters, Cathcarts and Plan B's (our forthcoming session beer)?

#youropinionisoftenrightbutyouroverarchingphilosophyiswrong #hastagsdonotworkheredothey

 

[Greig McGill]

Yeah, I think we do need a long chat, as you're confusing me with an anarchist! ;) Government definitely has a place. Libertarians are NOT anarchists. They (we) simply believe government is limited to protecting me from you and you from me. That is, it holds a monopoly on the use of force. So, police, justice, military - valid uses of government power. Deciding what adults put into their own bodies? Not so much.

I think the reason you see so much whinging is because we're such a tiny minority. It's hard to propose any positive change (more freedom) when the entire structure of society has been conditioned over the last couple of centuries to believe that the government must solve all problems, and everything that goes wrong is "society's fault" and requires more government to fix it. As a result, those few of us who love people, love freedom, and believe we are far better at managing our own affairs than some failed unionist who thinks he is qualified to do so because he managed to get elected in a popularity contest.

I also find myself complaining about this a lot more often lately. I try not to, but I really get so tired of kneejerk emotional responses to everything. Someone getting in a car and killing a child is horrible, and utterly heartrending, but as rational humans, we really have to stop letting our emotional reaction to a genuine tragedy limit the freedoms and actions of all the rest of us.

Make love, not regulation! :)

I've said all I will say on the issue for now. Despite the fact that I keep doing it, I really don't enjoy political discussions, I just can't help reacting against groupthink. Much love to you all. Carry on! :)