Using prehopped kits in place of LME in extract brewing?

[Aidan Curran]

Here in NZ kits are such Coopers Original series are cheaper than cans of plain unhopped LME. So I was wondering how cans such as the Coppers Lager would work out for extract brewing. I've read somewhere that if you boil them, you boil off the isohops flavour and aroma, it that correct? Would you then have the equivalent of an unhopped LME (with some bittering)? Are there any negative effects of boiling those kits? Or maybe even the hops can be used to advantage, reducing the amount of additional hops required. Very interested in hearing your opinions & experience on this. Thanks, Aidan.

[David Upex]

I have done a few 2 cans of coopers 23 litre brews and I must admit the first couple were extraordinarily bitter. After that I removed the 60 min hop additions even so they were still quite bitter, but that was not to bad as I was going for something IPA ish.

 

Some of them turned out quite good. It was certainly was the cheapest option for extract brewing.

[Aidan Curran]

Just an update on this - I brewed up a batch of 'Slutty Red' using a can of Coopers Lager as part of the fermentables. Just bottled her last week and initial tasting (while bottling) is promising. Recipe and writeup at http://beerandgarden.com/batch-no-6-aidans-slutty-red/

[Al Witham]

I found this discussion very interesting, so I'm thinking of doing something similar. I found a recipe for Mountain Goat Hightail clone using Coopers Real Ale, 1kg LDME, 300g dextrose, 100g crystal, and 25g fuggles or goldings.  For Mountain Goat pale ale they said substitute Coopers Australian Pale Ale kit for the Real Ale, and use Amarillo instead of the Fuggles/Goldings.

 

I nabbed a can of each kit from the supermarket the other day and I'll give it a go, starting with the pale ale. Haven't been able to find Amarillo, but I have some Cascade on order, which I imagine would work just as well. I'm not concerned with cloning the Mountain Goat, only in finding a good base pale ale recipe to work with. If I like it I may redo it using different late hops. Seems a good way to learn about the flavours and properties of each hop variety.

[Aidan Curran]

My beer turned out good although perhaps a little more bitterness than I prefer on the end of the palate. Not sure if it is related to the iso-hops in the can but I did add some 30min hops which would have upped the IBUs.

[Tilt]

It looks like you've got a good base for a PA to start with there Al. 

With regards to your recipe you could drop the dex down (or even out for more body) and use a little more, and perhaps a couple of different types of crystal - up to 300g wouldn't hurt depending on the amount of hops you're using.  Along with some good 20 and 10min flavour and 0min aroma hop additions in a short 30min boil to extract the fresh hop bitterness and flavours you'll make a nice drop for sure.

Good fermentation temp control will also help things along - probably more important than tweaking recipes actually.  Hops wise, Cascade will be just as good as Amarillo - but both are better:)

 I've got one of my kit/extract and steeped crystal brews in the current case swap - and although I know its not up to AG fresh grain taste standards - the comments seem to be reasonably favourable - better than I thought it might fare anyway.  My next kit brew will use a partial mash along with 2 cans of Coopers Mexican Cerveza as these are the lowest in colour and bitterness and give plenty of room for extra grain and hop additions.

Good luck and tell us how you get on.

[Al Witham]

Good advice, thanks Tilt. I'm just making the step up from kit plus enhancer brews, so I don't yet have hands on experience with particular hops, late hopping, etc. But I have been reading up a lot and I'm keen to start experimenting. I have plenty of crystal left over from my first scratch brew which I did last week (an extract based stout with 600g each of steeped crystal and roast barley, which is still fermenting).

 

My hops order arrived today: 100g each of Cascade, Sauvin, Willamette, and Riwaka.

 

I'm not in a position to make AG brews, so I'm interested in getting the best I can out of extract, steeped grains, and hop additions. I figure I'll keep the malt bill constant for a few brews and change the hops each time until I get a feel for them.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of control over temperature at the moment. I do have a heating pad for cold weather but otherwise I have to go with the ambient temperature in my sleepout. I keep the fermenter under a bench and behind a curtain. I'm thinking of perhaps partitioning it off and putting a lamp in there to keep things warm. Maybe there's some way to hook a lamp up to a thermostat.

[Aidan Curran]

a simple thing to help keep temp more constant is some insulation around the fermentor. I use some spare hot water tank lagging but even something like a blanket, an old jacket, sleeping bag etc. would work. When it got unseasonably cold I put a milk container of hot water inside the lagging to bring the temp up a couple degrees.

[Al Witham]

I've got some bubble wrap which I'll try for that.

 

Is keeping the temperature constant more important than the actual temperature, assuming it's somewhere within the range the yeast likes?

[Aidan Curran]

As far as I'm aware, if temp swing to the warmer side can result in off flavours, if it fluctuates towards the colder end it will just temporarily slow fermentation. So too warm is worse than too cold. I aim to keep it as consistent as possible and usually target the lower end of the temp range specified

[Al Witham]

I have a Muntons IPA that I suspect was fermented too warm. Tasted bloody awful after one week in the bottle, but has improved. After 3 weeks it's now drinkable but still has a bit of an off flavour. Not a sour infection thing, but that "homebrewiness" taste. It's diminishing but I don't know if it will go away altogether with aging. So I'm not sure if I should put it aside in the hope that it will come out ok, or just treat it as a quaffer and drink some now to allow my better brews to age properly. Even without the off flavour it would be pleasant but nothing special

 

As for the kit + extract brew, I put the pale ale down on Saturday and it's bubbling away merrily. I settled on steeping 200g medium crystal, boiled 25g Cascade with 1.5kg light LME for 15 minutes, then chucked another 10g Cascade into the fermenter along with the Coopers Australian Pale Ale kit. It came out a nice amber colour but maybe I should have done a longer hop boil to get some more bitterness. I don't think I read that bit of Tilt's reply properly. Oh well, there's only one way to find out. Thanks for the helpful replies guys.

[Al Witham]

Thank God that Muntons is finished ;-) Onwards and upwards!

 

Hmmm, not overly impressed with the results of my Australian Pale Ale kit experiment. The base bitterness of the kit itself isn’t enough for my taste. The Cascade I added for flavour helps a bit but I should have used more and boiled some of it longer for bitterness. Overall it’s pleasant and drinkable but a little bland. Although my better half and our flatmate seem to like it.

 

However, I got much better results from a tarted up Coopers Real Ale kit that’s about 2 and a half weeks in the bottle. This used a kilo of light LME, 150g steeped crystal (medium), 400g BE2 (not sure that it adds much but I had some lying around) and I think about 25g Nelson Sauvin boiled 10 minutes, with more added at flameout and dry hopping.

 

It has a lovely lush maltiness, good mouthfeel and reasonably balanced bitterness that supports the malt but doesn’t stand out. The late addition NS is interesting but a bit over the top, although it may tone down with time. I now understand why I’ve read that it should be used sparingly. But overall it's very enjoyable and I am impressed enough with the malt flavours to tone down the hops and do it again. I’m still a novice brewer (but not a novice drinker ha ha) and my aim is to learn about hops by doing this.

 

I put down another one last night and decided to reduce the overall hop addition and make it a blend of 1/3 NS and 2/3 US Cascade. About 15-20g Cascade for 10 mins, 10g NS at flameout. I won’t dry hop this time. This is a similar hop mix to Fat Yak pale ale from what I’ve read. I’m hoping it’ll give a more complex hop flavour and better balance with the malt.

 

I tried a 50 : 50 NS and Cascade mix in another scratch recipe recently and the NS overpowered the Cascade, which is why I opted for 1/3 NS in the mix this time.

 

What do you guys think? Am I on the right track with the hop profile?

[Tilt]

Thanks for the update Al - looks like you're doing what many of us do - learn from past experiments and tweak to improve over time.  In the end you'll crack a ripper of a recipe to suit your system and tastes and you'll have your own house ale!  I , as do others, like the 1/3 - 2/3 NS/Cascade combo  - my recent case swap beer was almost that combo.  I'd be interested to see what you think once yours is ready.  Cheers