Not bad "FOR A HOME BREW"??

[Nick Good]

Hi there, I am new to this forum and have only just scratched the surface.

I brewed kits for decades for consumption rather than perfection. I got a taste for it sure but it was allways just home brew and never came close to anything off the shelf. Friends would drink it as well and after the initial taste shock could slosh back a fair bit. It was allways not bad for a home brew.

I started getting interested again, after 7 or 8 years not brewing, while talking to a nephew who boils in a bag and gets it " just like the real thing". I visited a couple of brew shops and was blown away by the array of stuff there is now. so I brought a barrel and a sachet of Mangrove jack pale ale and a bag of Copper Tun brew enhancer ( dextrose ect ). Read some online John Palmer and away I went.

I gave the brew a couple of weeks and then bottled. After 1 week I sampled one. It was very clear and the head was very good but it still has that home brew "ping". Sure it was only 1 week. There is another one brewing, blonde with some craft series yeast for cool temps.

Basically what I would like is a beer that doesnt have the home brew taste tag. Is there such a thing? Can I get a decent beer with extracts/kits? I am happy to try things to enhance the quality but I dont really want to have to become a scientist to achieve it. There must be hundreds of people like me out there. Has anyone got any ideas that could help me on this mission or am I doomed to be a ' not bad for a home brew ' brewer?

Thanks for any suggestions and keep up the good work.

[Peter Smith]

move to BIAB brewing, burner $70 regulater $30 pot from save barn $70  mashbag about $25

but your brew costs will fall , you obviously are willing to put the time in.

Message me you are welcome to come and watch a BIAB batch from grain milling through yeast pitching.  Its not that hard most batches now cost me around $30 and that includes 200g of hops, can provide "refreshments"

[Nick Good]

Thanks Peter, is BIAB really that much better?

I am quite happy to go that way if it makes a lot of difference.

At the moment I feel like filling my barrels full of Coopers kits and having a sacrificial burning.

Might even have a Tuis while I watch it all melt and bubble. Ahhh!!!!

[Smiffy]

As I said initially, I was using one Coopers lager and one Coopers bitter plus S-04. My local P&S stopped selling the bitter kits though.

Looking at what's on Coopers website now, I would try one "Real Ale" (560 IBU) or "English Bitter"(560 IBU) and one "Lager" (390 IBU), make up to 25 litres, use S-04 or US-05, ferment at 20 degrees.

I think I tried one of their darker kits once, and I didn't like that either.

PS If you think Tui is actually an acceptable to drink, just make a coopers lager kit (as per instructions, with white sugar) and add some caramel colouring, that will probably come quite close to the Tui (lack of) taste.

[Mike]

Real Ale and lager kit will probably come out too bitter, at least in my experience that was the case. Nick, if you're finding they're too bitter with the 2x kits (I think the 30IBUs is fine but I drink a lot of bitter beers, and I dry hop them with about 100g of hops to make APAs) then buy a can of malt extract instead of the 2nd lager kit...certainly using a lager kit with anything other than another lager kit/draught kit puts your IBUs a little high, a can of light or amber LME is usually around $15 from a Homebrew store, problem is they don't stock em in supermarkets - hence why I didn't recommend them earlier. Also with the 2x lager kits you get both yeast packs, but if you're buying US-05 anyway you're sorted. Or you could replace the 2nd can with  a 'partial mash' with 2kg ale malt before moving to a full BIAB if you like... 

Here are the actual stats of a bunch of kits so you can see what doubling them does. Much over 30IBUs and you're in trouble...not due to bitterness neccessarily (plenty of IPAs are 40IBU and above) but the hop extract can be a bit 'pangy'.

Kit stats from Mangrove Jacks - stats are for 1 kit in 23L. 10g yeast pack per kit, Mangrove Jacks Craft Series strains - catered to style.

 

Craft Series brewery pouches (2.2 kg - with added dextrose/brew enhancer)

 

English Session Ale - IBU 18-24/Colour: Chestnut Brown/ABV 3.6% - Newcastle Dark Ale yeast 10g

India Pale Ale - IBU 35-45/Colour: Golden/ABV 4.7% - British Ale yeast 10g

Irish Stout - IBU 40-50/Colour: Black/ABV 4.9% - British Ale yeast 10g

London Bitter - IBU 28-36/Colour: Orange Brown/ABV 4.2% - Burton Union yeast 10g

Nut Brown Ale - IBU 26-34/Colour: Mahogany/ABV 4.1% - Newcastle Dark Ale yeast 10g

Pilsner - IBU 28-36/Colour: Golden/ABV 4.7% - Workhorse yeast 10g

Premium Lager - IBU 18-24/Colour: Pale Gold/ABV 4.4% - Workhorse yeast 10g

Bavarian Wheat - IBU 12-18/Colour: Hazy Gold/ABV 4.7% - Bavarian Wheat yeast 10g

 

Kit stats from Lion - One kit with dextrose in 23L vs estimated two kits in 23L (actual IBUs in doubled kits will be less due to more malt = higher final gravity, +/- 1.012 vs 1.008 kit +dextrose). 5g yeast pack per kit, Fermentis S-33 (beware old yeast).

.

Lion Lager – IBU 16/SRM 3      2x Lager= IBU 32/SRM 6 - (NZPA/APA/Pilsner range)

Lion Draught – IBU 17/SRM 6.5                2x Draught= IBU 34/SRM 13 (Amber range)

Lion Dark – IBU 16/SRM 25                    With lager kit= IBU 32/SRM 27 (Porter range)

Lion Real Ale – IBU 21/SRM 12.5                      With lager kit= IBU 37/SRM 15.5 (ESB/British IPA range)

 

Kit stats from Coopers - One kit with dextrose in 23L vs two kits in 23L (actual IBUs in doubled kits will be less). 7g yeast pack per kit, proprietary Coopers English ale strain (beware old yeast). 

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Coopers Lager - IBU 17-21/SRM 2.5                     2x Lager IBU 32-40/SRM 5

Coopers Draught - IBU - 18-23/SRM 3.6                  2x Draught IBU 36-46/SRM 7.2

Coopers Real Ale - IBU 23-30/SRM 6.4

Coopers Bitter - IBU 25-33.70/SRM 11

Coopers Dark Ale - IBU 27-32/SRM 16

Coopers Stout - IBU 32-38/SRM 50

Coopers Mexican Cerveza IBU 15-16 SRM 2

Coopers Australian Pale IBU 17-19 SRM 4 

 

Kit stats from Brewtec - One 1.5kg kit with dextrose in 23L vs two kits in 23L (Measure as at 5 Brix/1.020 OG per kit, actual IBUs in doubled kits will be less). 5g yeast pack per kit. Not recommended due to smaller size.

 

Brewtec Lager                     IBU 16/max  SRM 4

Brewtec Premium Draught     IBU  21/SRM 12.5

Brewtec Brown Drought         IBU 10/SRM 9

Brewtec Classic Dark Ale       IBU 20/SRM 20

[Smiffy]

It is very much a mater of personal taste and what you've been brought up on. I make my "bitter" to be 50 IBU. That's what I have found I prefer by trial and error, and pretty much what a coopers lager+bitter kit made up to 25 l will give you.

[Nick Good]

Thanks Smiffy,

I am actually not keen on Tuis beer and wouldnt buy it but I wouldnt pay $8 for a stubby of craft beer either.

It is just that I am not producing anything that even equals Tuis.

[Peter Smith]

come and try a couple of my biab efforts bring you kit beer....

I have only being doing biab for a year,   its all about the taste.

I can also let you sample wheat beer biab vs wheat german extract, again you will be able to tell the difference...  i show all beers the temp control liquid yeast love,   but i am a failure with kit/extract,  without a mate pushing me towards AllGrain I would have givern up,  two guys on my floor here have done a few kits tasted the all grain and are now coming over to do double batches with me to takle away and ferment,  very soon I will have converted them,   All grain brewing is not something to be scared of... especially if you are commiting the $$ and time you have to try and make a nice beer... its very old school even monks used to do it.

[Peter Smith]

Tui is actually a lot like an English mild only milder

I spent an evening at the Petone rugby club on tui jugs recently and my thoughts where, Aroma hop None, colour mainly food colouring low malty ness mainly base malt nz pale? Very clean and quite low buttering many be 30ibu dash of alcohol very session able in fact after many jugs (only other beer really was hienekin) all I needed the next day was bacon eggs and I was away...

There is no residual caramel or beer kit twang. I am 100 % sure if we did a biab smash with a neutral nz bittering hop and added 50grams of dark for colouring used us05 you would have a tui clone. I was born in waipukurau and have stolen my fair share of tuis out of the old mans beer fridge and would rather drink tui then some of the kit beers I have made.

[Smiffy]

That's a bit harsh. English mild is mild in alcohol, but will usually be quite malty, but at least it is an ale, unlike Tui "east india pale ale" which is a tasteless coloured lager, and I have seen ibu figures of 10-15 quoted for it.

As before you ask, yes I have tried it, but just the once.

I have even done the Tui brewery tour, and the tour guides couldn't tell me how many hops they use, or how much sugar, but they did tell us that both ingredients are used.

[Mike]

Tui is more like an Oktoberfest/amber lager as it (along with most of the other commercial NZ draughts) is fermented with a lager yeast. US-05 would do the trick though. But honestly I don't see the point in putting in the effort to do a full mash and boil if all you want to make is a beer like Tui. If that is the standard to match it can easily be exceeded with extract and hops. I'd rather spend the time mashing something with a bit more flavour, but still sessionable, like a NZ pale ale, brown ale or porter. 

I went to copy and paste the stuff I wrote defending extract beer on the Huttbrewer forum and then realised that was a conversation with you Peter, so I'm kind of repeating myself here. I know you've had bad experiences with extract and kits, and that's fair enough. I thought our conversation might have changed your mind but I guess until you taste the results of well brewed kit/extract beers it's a bit hard. The homebrew shop down here sells extract NZ pale ale kits http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=657743481 , believe me when I say, coming from a craft beer elitist, that they are high level craft beer quality, and indistinguishable from commercial when fermented well. The key with this one is the (fresh) added hops, not the small amount of specialty malt. The extract beers myself and my mate entered in the NHC last year also did way better than 95% of the mashed beers entered by our club this year. Sure the judging may have been harsher this year but still. My mates kit beer scored better than all four of his all grain beers he entered this year!  I have put together kit Epic Pale Ale clones for my non-brewer mates to get them into the hobby, no extract twang or over caramelisation - definitely not only for malt forward beers. 

By all means Nick should get into BIAB, it's easy as, you have more control over the process and in my opinion it does produce better beer. But extract is huge over in the States and brewers consistently win BJCP competitons (NHC etc) with extract beers over there. There's nothing wrong with it if you know how to use it. If the extract is FRESH and your yeast is good, no reason why you can't fake an AG wort.

The key is how much time you have to invest in a brewday. I can only brew AG when I have a whole day free, whereas I can throw together a kit with extract + dry hops  beer in 30 mins. Sure, it may not be as good as the AG that I spent 4-5 hours making, but on the other hand it'll be miles better than Tui, and I have a lot of spare fermenters and need a pretty high rotation of beer for my keg fridge. I'd rather do all my beers all grain, don't get me wrong, but at the moment I don't have time.

Jamils Brewing Classic Styles is aimed at extract brewers with AG option. We had a club lager competition with a WW kit Dutch Lager kit brew entered out of interest. A BJCP judge along with group judging placed it middle of the pack of 15 solid AG entries, beating some great tasting AG beers. You CAN have your cake and eat it too.

[Peter Smith]

Its a bit late now for the case swap this weekend but why don't put an extract  beer in case swap 11 so I can try one , I have tried good kit beers that are clean from the William's warm machine (still kit not extract boil and hops),  but can can still tell that they are kits.  

I guess if someone wanted to spend a huge amount of time, more then an average AG brew, they could probably perfect the art of canned brewing.  For me my worst AG beer is still better then the best kit beer, and I only used MJ craft series.

[Mike]

My point here is that no extra time input/investment is required, although having some sort of knowledge of temp control helps - eg using water baths in winter - or a temp control fridge if you want more control (I do). You don't need to spend a 'huge amount of time' perfecting it, the point of doing it is that it's quicker and easier to nail than a mash since the sugars are converted for you (though I'd be the first to say that nailing a BIAB mash is monkey simple).

It doesn't take much time to perfect, my lazy non-brewers mates who are doing it with my advice nailed (pretty much) Epic Pale Ale first go (although Nick is obviously having trouble getting his beers to taste the way he wants them to). Brewing good kit/extract beer does require knowledge that (usually) is only acquired when people go all grain, like the importance of a low pitch temp, yeast pitching rates (and using 11g fridged packs), longer ferment times and cool ferment temps - all of which are EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what you are told to do on the cans, hence why I wrote the FAQ file http://www.forum.realbeer.co.nz/forum/topics/simple-things-to-avoid.... It also requires cans that haven't been sitting around for years on the shelf, a HBS with a high turnover like our local is great for this. So there's that disadvantage. New brewers tend to not clean/sanitise as well as they should (especially bottles) and improve this slowly, by the time they go AG their sanitation practices (along with their fermentation techniques etc) have improved - and so their beer has too.

I got to say though I still think that boiling the kit + extract for 10-15 mins in a 5L stock pot with late aroma hop additions feels better to me that just pouring the extract straight in the fermenter with boiling water kit brew style...though I've done both. It just doesn't feel like 'brewing' to me without the literal 'brewing' part - and even though the extract's sterile in the can it seems wrong to just use it as is. I have a hunch this might help with extract 'tang' from some old cans too but this is probably just a hunch.