Mangroves Jacks Yeast Issues

[Mark]

Hi All

I have a checkered history with M44 West Coast ale yeast which basically boils down to one problem - I'm always convinced the yeast is not viable (i.e. dead) when I go to pitch it. I rehydrate, and it always seems to be way too dark, both in the pack and in the water. John Palmer describes dead yeast as "looking like peanut butter", and this is what I get every time. The yeast takes an age to get going and I normally lose my nerve and throw in a pack of US05.

Does anybody else find this? Can yeast be a much darker colour and still viable? Is the lag time just a characteristic of M44 or is the yeast poked?

Cheers

[Tilt]

Have to admit I've thought similar on opening a fresh pack of M44.
The yeast makes me nervous with its extended lag time - but the fermentation results are reasonable (IMO better than SO5 better clarity, cleaner taste) and I don't get the other products of unhealthy yeast ( acetylaldehyde etc. ). Funny thing is I've pitched this from fresh slurry up to 4 generations into oxygenated wort and I get up to 80% attenuation, clean beers.... But the lag time is always around 36 hrs.
To counteract the lag I just take extra care with my sanitation and try to accept its just what this yeast does (difficult as it is)

[Sam DT]

I usually get quite a lag with this as well - worst was around 48 hours - that said I also had one take off in under 12 - If I get lots of foaming when I re-hydrate that usually seems to means shorter lag time.

That said I think it's a great yeast and has replaced WLP001 as my house yeast, obviously it's a lot easier to use as no starters but I think it may be a bit cleaner as well. I use it for everything from NZ Pils (at 15-16 deg) up to IPAs although I use US05 for double IPA for the attenuation.

[Mark]

Glad to hear it's not just me! I'm not so concerned about the lag time, at least not on its own. It's the colour that really worries me, other dried yeasts are much lighter. It makes me wonder if the lag time is a symptom of badly packaged yeast, especially if (as Sam says) it is possible to get much shorter lag times.

[oliver]

Have you used any of the other mangrove jacks yeasts Mark? I thought the colour was just due to the nature of their plant maybe? I've used all the english strains from MJs and they're all darker in colour than fermentis but have a very short lag time as you would expect from english strains. The colour and smell during rehydration made me nervous the first time but the results were good.

You should get a shorter lag phase if you pitch more M44 which I believe is recommended, I got under 12 hours on my last batch by using 3 packs (20L 1.065). I'd recommend trying 2 packs for 20L of 1.050.

The lag time could be caused by viability, if you can get someone with a hemocytometer and a microscope to do some counts for you that could shed some light on your theory.

My thinking is that it's just due to the fact it's probably a different yeast strain. You've already noted that M44 is more flocculent than US05, might also just inherently have a longer lag phase.

[Mark]

I suspect you're right, it is just a feature of the different yeast brand. I've tried their belgian ages ago, that was really dark too but seemed to kick off no problems. M44 is a great strain so will try using it again and ignore the colour.

[oliver]

All good use whatever makes you feel comfortable and gets you the results you're after, I still use US05 and WLP001 most of the time but quite like M44 too. 

[Crusader-Rob]

This yeast is pretty good.

First time i used it, i pitched 1 dry pack straight into 1.056 wort, and it took nearly 72 hours to start.

i went back to us05 for awhile, and encountered soem diacetyl issues. so decided to give 44 another shot, but treating it alot better than previously.

research i've done suggests a high pitch rate.

as soon as my og hits 1.052 i pitch a second packet and always rehydrate.

i used it in a foreign extra stout recently, and the only issue i had was over attenuation! 1.066-1.014 in a beer with plenty of specialty and darker malts. this is quite a dry strain, the Est Fg should have been 1.016/8 and this took it that little bit extra. i wouldnt use it again in these types of beers, but probably the best yeast IMO for a West Coast IPA, nice and dry. 

[David R]

I've only used it once, on a robust porter, and I'd read the stories of long lag times and was all prepared for nothing to happen quickly. I pitched two rehydrated packets into 23L of 1.064, shook the crap out of it for a minute, set the temp to 18C and a little over 12 hours later I had krausen bubbling out the airlock of the 30L bucket fermenter!! The yeast looked fine to me when I rehydrated it, and it was obviously pretty healthy given how quickly it took off. It chewed it down to 1.014 pretty quickly too, as Rob said it can finish drier than other similar strains.

TBH the big lag plus excessive krausen is enough for me to stick with 05. I'm happy with the clarity and I could do without the mess. I've also read people suggesting that M44 strips out more of the hop flavour/aroma than 05, though I've also occasionally read the opposite.

[Crusader-Rob]

Yeah, the rumours are that this strips some hop flavour out.

I would suggest this is because, the clarity on thei yeast is better than US-05. 

Which strips out some of the hop haze/lovely bits and pieces, but its not significant enough to warrant me moving away from M44, I prefer it to US-05, unless i'm doing a stout/porter, and its just gets too dry.

[David R]

Perhaps the more vigorous fermentation with more bubbling/krausen also drive off some of the volatiles that give the aroma? People always suggest adding stuff like coffee or vanilla after most of the fermentation has happened so the aromas aren't lost, so I guess the same applies to hops.

I guess I should try it on an IPA before I give up on it.