mainstream beer

[Martin townshend]

Hi There,
As co owner of a pub that stocks a range of (mainly) craft and (a little) mainstream beer and a small commercial brewer, I was thinking of attempting to draw mainstream drinkers away from thier brands by attempting a clone of thier favourite tipple, (namely Tui.)
Before you choke on your bottle conditioned real ale IPA's, this hasn't been done yet, and I'll be the first to admit, this is just an idea and actually goes against my brewing ethos.
What I want to know is, what ingredients make this stuff? I tried a bottle a while ago, and as a total hop head, there didn't seem to be much in there with a very sweet finish. It must be a lager too with a dolop of caramel(?) and a shed load of sugar. (It's all ready sounding cheap to make....)
Perhaps this should have gone in the 'recipe advice thread' but maybe there is a Tui/Speights clone out there.....? Only malt, hops, water and yeast would be used.
If nothing else, I'm sure this may create a little discussion and general abuse in my direction!
M

[Stu McKinlay]

Right on, PoB.

[jt]

Do a nice Mild - not so far off an NZ Draught really - ok, yeast, sugar (debatable) and serving temperature - and a staple of the drinking class

Or a Brunette - dark Blonde ?

Easy really

[Tony]

Great discussion, Martin. All the points put forward have merit. IMO, brew a nice mild and give your regular Tui drinkers a free taster. Price it competitively and educate them slowly. It may take a few brews to get it right, be straight up with them and tell them what you are trying to achieve (?). That may be counter productive, with some. But I find most people appreciate honesty and you won't turn all of them, but if you can educate a few, then job done!

Basically Tui is a lager (not an ale), it is continuously fermented with the same yeast used in Lion red. Trucks loads of sugar and fuck all hops= Tui slop. But if you do a nice mild, not too strong, light on hops, hey who knows. Bugger it, cut your costs, lets get real, you can't start flushing money down the toilet. Until you get it right. Good luck! Have I just been blasphemous?

[Simon David kelly]

I personally think you're on the right tracks with a NZ Draught / Dark Lager. I'd also stick with an alchol content of 4% or a little lower. Make it a refreshing session draught.

I also think you'd be able to brew one for a selling price under $5 a handle. That'd get the customers switching.

Si

[JoKing]

I know that this issue fles in the face of what most people on here believe in. However - just read what Martin is after here: A recipe. I agree that the debate is good here, but no one (apart from Glen and Barry) has really offered any help to Martin. Furthermore, who's to say Martin wont kick ass in his pub with a "Better Tui than Tui" beer?

Here is a beer that I brewed for my Dad that accentuated all the characters in his favourite brew: Lion Red. It had all the Hallmark flavours, but it was drinkable to me too, because I could appreciate that it was brewed better, with better ingredients. In the end, he told me that it was better than his drink of preference. The turnaround was remarkably quick - bright beer in a fortnight.

8-B Special/Best/Premium Bitter
Date: 14/08/2008

Size: 19.68 L
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 151.57 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.046 (1.040 - 1.048)
Terminal Gravity: 1.011 (1.008 - 1.012)
Color: 29.17 (5.0 - 16.0)
Alcohol: 4.48% (3.8% - 4.6%)
Bitterness: 29.7 (25.0 - 40.0)

Ingredients:
3.5 kg Pale Ale Malt - Gladfield
0.25 kg Crystal 65ebc
0.15 kg CaraAmber Malt
0.1 kg Melanoidin Malt
0.03 kg Black Malt
35.0 g Fuggle (6%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
10.0 g Fuggle (4.3%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
15.0 g East Kent Goldings (4.2%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
20.0 g East Kent Goldings (4.2%) - added during boil, boiled 1.0 min
0.79 L White Labs WLP002 English Ale

00:27:10 Mash In - Liquor: 10.06 L; Strike: 73.85 °C; Target: 65 °C
01:27:10 Saccharification Rest - Rest: 60.0 min; Final: 64.3 °C
01:28:10 Infusion - Water: 8.41 L; Temperature: 94.2 °C; Target: 78 °C
01:38:10 Mash Out - Rest: 10 min; Final: 78.0 °C
02:23:10 Sparge - Sparge: 10.9 L sparge @ 76.7 °C, 25.42 L collected, 45.0 min; Total Runoff: 26.09 L

Now... you guys can't tell me that by looking at the recipe that it is a piece of shit Lion Red Clone can you?

[Martin townshend]

Thanks to Glen ,Barry and Joking for a recipe which was the point of this.
I've got a pretty good handle on how to make this now and how to sell it.
As I've previously mentioned, (and having been in the industry for 5 years or so as a beer writer, commercial brewer and now pub owner,) I support everyones sentiments here, BUT, I simply can't abide foriegn owned fat cats (DB,Lyin') feeding off the ignorant. Winds me up no end.
Cheers everyone.
M

[Stu McKinlay]

I can tell by looking at it that it would taste nothing like Lion Red.

Yeastie Boys Kid Chocolate was, to borrow and bastardise a phrase from Fluke (90's UK electronica artists), 'our version of Draught'. There's no way it tasted anything like a NZ draught to a knowledgable drinker but it really wasn't that far off.

[JoKing]

Totally agree about kid choc. It wasn't till it warmed up when you really started to taste the buscitty brown malt, and some of the vinous characters from the Rakau... but when it was ice cold... I didn't want to say it... and I wont. At least my palate is half way good enough to know that it was a well made beer.

[Barry]

Ha, Joking. What is it with dads and Leon Rouge? My dad just can't see past it.
He's in Ireland at the moment, my brother took him to a nice pub, ordered a locally (micro) brewed chocolate stout, dad orders a Fosters. I love my dad, but what the fuck? Unbelievable, irrational and _extreme_ fear of the unknown/unbranded.
At the same time he proudly tells all his friends that I'm "quite the accomplished amateur craft brewer". I can't begin to understand it, but one thing is for sure: big hops are too confrontational for the average fella.

I think for sure this is a temporary problem, if kiwi blokes got wind of "big beer + big hop = real mans beer" in the US west coast sense, we'd have a good old hoppy revolution on our hands.

Tell your friends and make it happen!

[JoKing]

Viva Revalution!!!!!

[denimglen]

"big beer + big hop = real mans beer"

HONESTLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS ISN'T THE CASE.

I agree with that fully, NZ's full of big tough beer drinking guys, you'd think they'd want big beer, lots of flavour, something 'grunty' and manly, yet when it comes to beer they choose relatively tasteless and weak, watery stuff. Then you give them a big explosive beer and they whinge about it being too bitter, or something. It's like 'what the fuck? Harden up!'

Luke, you're already half way there, your bottle says 'It just tastes bigger' and the beers named 'Epic', it's got more alcohol than the average beer, get an add on TV mother fucker, start the revolution! All you need is some half naked birds (as in woman, not Tui's), some fat guys that get the birds, and a stupid ass joke, sorted!

[jt]

"big beer + big hop = real mans beer"

HONESTLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS ISN'T THE CASE.

because everything gets dumbed down to the lowest common denominator to meet the margin and pay for the advertising campaign and return a profit to the shareholders and maintain share value ... and 1000's of people follow on blindly .. only a few discard the blinkers

Time for you to get innovative and experiemnet a la number 8 wire Martin, make a few small batches and try them on the locals

As for an NZ Draught recipe, this is in the Export Gold area, inoffensive enough for my non drinking neighbour to drink
95% ADM Pils
5% caramalt
10 IBU Bittering Super Alpha or other suitable cheapie
5-10 IBU hallertau or similar moderately flavoured hop
lager yeast or '05

For a darker version, use crystal of choice and a smidge of your favourite colouring grain.

For more adjunct ideas , take a look at the recipes on www.nzhops.co.nz