Losses to Trub and Chiller

[Richard Rice]

Ok, so for good or evil, I use Brewmate and each time I do a brew, I learn something new about it.  During my last brew (with Brother in Law) we actually measured the trub we have remaining because, as it turns out, on the Brewday page, there is a section that allows you to add Losses to Trub and Chiller.

However, by adding this volume into the Brewday calculations, Brewmate increases the volume of water we need (by the way, I use BIAB) for mashing in.

My concern, however, is what will this do to my efficiency?  I've done less than 10 brews so far, still learning so efficiency isn't really a big concern per se, but I'm keen to make the best beer I can.  Will a larger volume of water at mash in increase or decrease efficiency.

What makes me wonder is I saw a conversation where higher alcohol beers (and therefore, more grain) resulted in lower efficiency - which I understand to be because of the water to grain ratio.  So does going the other way (only by a couple of litres) work the other way.  If I have more water, will that allow me to extract more sugars?

[Ralph]

Are you talking about trub in the kettle or in the fermentor? There should be an adjustment for both.

If in the kettle then it depends if you are talking mash efficiency or brewhouse efficiency? Does Brewmate just increase the water volume for kettle trub, or does it adjust the numbers/amount of grain going in? Having a slightly thinner mash from more water volume with the same amount of grain is likely to increase the mash efficiency, meaning you will get more of the sugars out of the grain and into the kettle. Leaving wort behind mixed in with trub means your overall brew efficiency will drop as brewhouse efficiency is a measure of how much potential sugar from the grain you got into the finished product.

Ideally you would adjust your brew volume to allow for the trub you are leaving behind in the kettle so that you are hitting the right volumes and OG going into your fermentor. Any good brewing software will have a way of adjusting for this and should give you the correct numbers for volume and gravity as long as you know what your mash efficiency is. You can work out your mash efficiency from past brews by measuring the potential OG, and what the volume and OG you actually got in the kettle are (this is likely to be different when you are aiming for different gravities. High efficiency at lower OG and lower efficiency at higher OG). If just adding more volume (water) then your mash efficiency is likely to be a touch higher than what you originally worked out, and your overall or brewhouse efficiency a bit lower, but the main goal is getting the right volume into the fermentor at the right OG.

Losses to trub in the fermentor should only affect the bottling/kegging volume and should not adjust the initial volume into the fermentor you are aiming for. This will affect your brewhouse or overall efficiency. More trub = less efficiency.

The allowance for trub will change with different brews as others have mentioned. If there are lots of hops then there will be lots of trub in the kettle, and if dry hopping there will be lots of trub in the fermentor. Also note that hops absorb a bunch of water and so you may even have to add more volume for very hoppy beers.

[JumpR]

Hey Ralph - cheers for the informative responses! 

Keeping records is useful to honing in adjustments (initial volume, pre-boil volume / gravity, volume / gravity into FV, quantity of trub tipped etc.).  I have entered all this information into a spreadsheet which has helped.

One query I have is how long is recommended to wait until syphoning from the kettle into the FV.  I use an immersion chiller to cool to pitch temp. (no whirlpool as the pot I use has a raised centre), then move the kettle to a bench prior to syphoning to the FV.  I have noticed that slowing down the rate of draw during the syphon has its benefits, but is there a recommended time to wait until sufficient settling of trub/break??

[Ralph]

The longer you wait the more trub will settle... and as the wort has been cooled there is no risk of DMS etc forming. The longer you leave it uncovered the greater risk of bugs falling in and contaminating your brew. I know people that leave it overnight. I tend to leave it about 30 min after I whirlpool for the softer/smaller particle trub to settle a little and then transfer to fermentor.

What I have now done a few times is to siphon off most of the clear wort from the kettle into a fermentor and then tip the trub from the kettle into a sanitised bucket (that has an accompanying sanitised lid). I pitch my yeast etc into the fermentor and get it all started and then come back the next day and siphon the last bit of wort off the top of the settled trub in the bucket. I often get an extra few litres doing this. There is of course some greater risk of infection with the extra transfer etc. but it does mean you get the most out of your brew.

Yes, keeping records is key to improving your brewing. I started out recording on paper etc but went and bought Beersmith before I got to the point I needed a spreadsheet. Brewing software generally has all the calculations you need and will generally provide an excellent record of what volumes/OG/Trub/efficiency etc you do on each batch (as long as you fill the fields in diligently). Having software has made a huge difference to my brewing.

[Scarrfie]

I quite often leave the kettle to cool for 4-5 hours in a bath I have outside. Longer the better as you say so if it is late in the day I occasionally leave it overnight. Hopefully with the lid on and up to its neck in water then any stray bugs won't make it in.

What I have done for sometime is to line a collander with paper towels and dump the trub in that overnight. I cover the collander with the lid of the pit it is sitting in. Always an extra 1-1.5L that way.

[Richard Rice]

Thanks so much Ralph.  I've just agreed to brew some beers for my cousin's wedding and I'm loath to start experimenting on my outcomes already - especially since I'm not even 10 brews into all grain yet.  But then again, if it helps efficiency a touch, that can't really change things too much, right?

[Peter Smith]

Suddenly had an aha moment....    when doing double batches I always see increased eff,  probably as a 3L loss over 46L is a lot different to a 3L loss over 23L...    and I think I do see some eff gain due to deeper grain bed and sparge...    also since I started adding koppafloc at 15min vs 10min I think I get less losses.