Dry hopping in stages

[Rob Thomas]

I've usually brewed in blind faith, not really looking too hard at any of the techniques I use unless the beer starts tasting weird. Well that's just what's happened. And I think I know why- I brewed any epic PA clone and dry hopped with 100g for seven days. It tastes like someone mowed the lawns and used my fermenter as a compost bin. From experience I know that if I had broken this up into 2 additions of 50g for 5 or less days each it probably would have been ok. This got me wondering. Why is that? And why do some recipes call for 1 type of hop added first followed by other hops? A good example of what I'm talking about is Richard Deeble's famous NZPA. http://www.forum.realbeer.co.nz/profiles/blogs/brewing-a-good-nz-pa... Why not add all the dry hops at once for 5 days?

So in summary:
- why dry hop in stages?
- what hops should be used when in your dry hopping regime? Why?

[Mark Weusten]

Hi Rob, I believe the theory with dry hopping in stages is to give a deeper and more complex aroma than you would by dumping the lot in at once. I can say the hopping schedules in the Deebles certainly works but has to be consumed quite early (4-6 weeks) otherwise it seemed to fall out and leave some grassy flavours. Low alpha hops  tend to be used and I'm really liking the Amarillo/Simcoe dry hop at the mo. I think 100g is getting up there in quantity for one hop maybe back it off a bit next time. I think the only way to perfect the dry hopping regime would be split batches and mix up the additions, maybe someone has heard of a rule of thumb that works....

[Rob Thomas]

Yeah, cheers Mark. I've looked high and low online for info on this but you've got the closest to answering the question. The thing that's always mystified me about Deeble's PA is the comparatively tiny additions of Pacifica and pacific jade. This is the only time they feature in the recipe and it's made me wonder how they can really make any difference amongst some many other pungent hop varieties. As you say, must come down to experimentation.

[Steve Hinton]

Ive just done my first dry hop addition tonight into an Epic Pale Ale clone. Tossed 57g of cascade pellets straight into the primary on day 5. SG was 1060 and it's dropped to 1012 so figured it was ready. According to the recipe I'm following, I leave this for 5 days at fermenting temp then do a second dry hop addition of 57g and crash cool it for another 5 days. I will be interested to see how this turns out considering I overshot the SG by 8 points!

[Peter Smith]

what yeast did you use?

[Steve Hinton]

WLP051 Cal Ale V. Two vials into a 3L starter hand swirled occasionally for 24 hours at 22C then crashed in fridge for 8.5hrs before decanting off 2L and splitting 1L of yeast slurry between 2 fermenters each with 20L of wort. According to yeast calcs I under pitched!

[Peter Smith]

let us know how it turns out, I am keen to do a marris otter version of epic pale ale, with about 15% caramalt. quite a low mash and split across W1272 and WLP051 and fermented pretty cool.   I have tried Gladfields pale and GP, neither have nailed the epic taste for me yet, used us05  perhaps thats it as well.

[Mark Weusten]

Clone recipe I have for Epic PA has pilsner and pale crystal in it. How do you reckon that would go?

[Peter Smith]

Everyone I talk to says 15-18% crystal , mix of caramalt and TF pale...  I still haven't tasted a really nailed version yet tho, side by side etc.... some good beers but not EPA maybe I am mashing too high as mine has had a residual sweetness I dont get in the real thing, going to try the MO and a 65 mash on 23L   I got a kg of us cascade off dermot.  

[Steve Hinton]

I used the "Can You Brew It" recipe from The Brewing Network. Jamil interviewed Luke from Epic who handed over his recipe then they broke it down to a homebrew scale, brewed it then tasted it side by side to assess whether it was in fact "cloned". They agreed it was.

Here it is. I doubled it :-) ...

All recipes are (unless otherwise specified): 6 gallons post-boil, 70% efficiency, Morey for color, 15% evaporation, 7.27 gallons preboil, Rager IBU, and most hops are in grams not ounces. Most, if not all recipes are primary only (no secondary).

If you brew this, please reply with your results for discussion.

OG 1052
FG 1011-1012
IBUs 23.2
SRM 8.3

4.3kg Golden Promise 80%
550g Baird's Caramalt 10%
180g Carapils 3.3%
360g Fawcett Pale Crystal 6.6%

90 minute boil

7g Cascade 7.5%AA at 75m
14g Cascade at 30m
34g Cascade at 10m
42.5g Cascade at 0m
Wait ten minutes
42.5g Cascade - hot whirlpool for 10 more minutes
57g Cascade dry hop dose 1 at ferment temps for 5 days
57g Cascade dry hop dose 2 at cold crash temps for 5 days

Wyeast 1272 American Ale II

Mash at 155F (68.5C)

Cool to 18C and pitch, raise to 21C after 24 hours.

[Kevin Sharp]

I'm heading a bit off-topic here, but I'm pretty sure that recipe is not 23 IBU. Luke doesn't specify the IBU of his brew, but others put it at 45.

I think the discrepancy arises from a recipe calculator that doesn't allow for the hop stands. If you assume 8% efficiency for the first 42.5g addition and 6% for the second then the IBU comes out at 48.2 Tinseth, 43.3 Rager.

I would have thought that using a hop back was a more efficient way to get that late hopping, but since Luke specifies US Cascade and whole hops can't be imported I guess that's not and option.

[Steve Hinton]

Yeah the IBU calcs don't seem to allow for the impact of flame out and hop stand additions. True IBU's on this brew should bang out around 45

[Crusader-Rob]

My understanding is the 1272 yeast is quite important in this beer. 
I used US-05 awhile back, and it was good but not EpicPA. the staging of dryhops is important as well in a smaller beer like this.