What are you drinking ?

[jt]

Ok, so What Are You Brewing was a hotty, as topics go.

Now I'm 15 pints into a keg I only filled on Tuesday and wondering if anyone else has a favourite at the moment ?

It's my second brown with US-Oh05 and it's better than the forst, maybe Ikept the temps down a bit during the scorcher we had in januray

[Greig McGill]

I guess I'm the sort who just thinks about all the variables involved in getting craft beer to the consumer in NZ with all the odds against the producer. Equipment to ensure sanitary bottling costs a fortune, maintaining it does too, distribution in NZ is not easy, ensuring quick turnover in a fairly hostile market is damn near impossible, etc etc. Even Emerson's and Epic have had batch and bottling issues, and they take it more seriously than anyone else from what I've seen.

I'm not making excuses for the brewer, just explaining why I keep going back when burned. The unfortunate thing (for the brewer) is that I'm being an irrational consumer, and yourself and Kempicus are the rational ones. Nobody can ever expect you to drink bad beer. :)

[Greig McGill]

DAYAM! Pliny the Elder. Thank you Mike!

I rated it here: http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/russian-river-pliny-the-elder/8936/33446/

I think I'd like to try it fresh on draught though. I'd also like to say that I think Luke's Mayhem, Armageddon, and Steve's Maximus Humulus Lupulus have all approached this level of awesome. So we can do it here!

[Stu McKinlay]

You're not serious are you?
Armageddon is great but (as I've said before) it is an ampedup Monk's and I'm sure it will be a helluva lot better this year.

I'll take my heavenly experience with Rogue XS Imperial Pale IPA if Pliny is only at the level of the other two (Mayhem is a lovely strong NZ-style APA but lacked malt character - sweetness there but not malt character. Hallertau MHL is, hopefully, something to be improved on this year, it showed up holes in the NZ malt - too husky for pale beers).

[Greig McGill]

I am serious. I thought Pliny was good, but no better than I've had right here. I'll reserve judgement until I've tried it fresh in the US.

I think you missed how MHL aged. It was a sublime experience later on in life. Armageddon was a stunner fresh, but didn't age as well.

Am I that far off base? Well, it's how I feel.

I've not had Rogue XS IPA. The only Rogue beer I've had was their Morimoto Impy Pilsner. That WAS amazing. Different to anything I've ever had, and fairly mindblowing in its own right. Sorry Stu, first time we've disagreed in a long time! ;)

[Stu McKinlay]

Fair enough, I did try MHL early and Steve himself said it was too young. I've not tried any bad beers from him so I have no reason to disbelieve....

but...

None of the above beers would have aged into Rogue Imperial IPA - that was perfection in ingredients, fermentation and packaging. The only other other NZ strong beers that I've tasted that would come close in the "perfection" department are Twisted Hop's Epiphany (their first barleywine which aged so well), Emerson's Taieri George 2005, Emerson's 1812 Anniversary Ale, Hallertau Porter Noir and... probably the best of them all... Limburg Oude Reserve (RIP).

[JoKing]

Dont quote me on this - but I'm not sure if Rogue XS IIPA is dry hopped. And because the beer is bottle conditioned, unpasturised and unfiltered - it stands to reason that it ages well.

One of the only reasons why so many IPAs wont age well is because of oxidation due to the dry hoping. Pliny, Armageddon, Twisted Hop IPA, MHL, Ruination etc. are all dry hopped: best enjoyed fresh. It even says on the Pliny bottle not to cellar it.

I had Pliny fresh on draught... big brag! It was absolutely monumental. It left any other IPA I've ever tasted dead in the water... well - apart from Ruination. Oh, and Green Flash.

Lukes, Steves and Twisted Hops are the closest beers in NZ to capturing this flavour.

Watch out for Steve at Hallertau this year.

[Stu McKinlay]

I believe The Twisted Hop Epiphany WAS dry hopped and it was/is absolutely amazing aged. I've still got a single 330ml bottle in the cellar. No offence to Epic or Hallertau but their IPA efforts are not even close to Epiphany (they are significantly 'smaller' at around 6.5% compared to Epiphany's 10%+).

Each to our own, I've not tried many American IPA/IIPAs, but have found them all to be a fair bit drier (and usually more "malty" - with more of a caramel/toffee character) than the "bitter+sweet" beers down under.

I'll try to get Martin or Sean to give us an insight into what makes the Epiphany so good...

[JoKing]

I didn't get to have epiphany - but I tried hard to get some. THIPA was really good. The Chinook offers the most aggressive bitterness compared to so many other hops - and Cascade is a classic.

Would you say that the higher alcohol would act in a way that would aid in preventing oxidation?

[Stu McKinlay]

I think the extra malt, especially the caramel ones, are proven to aid in this department. Look at all the great beers to age... a lot of them are are hoppy but they are almost all malty. Yeast definitely helps, as we all know, it scavenges the oxygen.

[JoKing]

I think it's quite typical to have the caramel malty character you speak of - when I had:

Ruination (fresh): Caramel it was barely noticable. You could get it if you looked for it.

Pliny (fresh) noticable in a way, but not in others... if you were looking for it, you'd find it - but it was too easy to be taken aback from its sheer drinkablity and sheer hoppness. Very easy to drink.

West Coast IPA (bottled): caramel was virtually non existent. It was chewy, thick bitter, piney, citrus... but ballanced - as you would appreciate. Easy to drink.

XS (bottled): Not as hoppy as the others - very malty. Easy to drink.

Dogfish head 90min IPA (bottled): malty bitter complex - not so much a West Coast style IPA (funny that seeing as they are Easct Coast). Cost a lot of money, and didn't work for my tastes. Not easy to drink.

120min IPA (bottled): more of a barley wine IMO. Not easy to drink.

I guess the moral of the story is, that the style is so vast - and IIPAs are still one of the newest. I suppose everyone is trying to define it in there own right - so there is no "not to style" here. However I think drinkability is a keystone for it. It would make sense to say one is good over another because of how it fits in to your palate. I think the only ones you can say are bad - are examples that are flawed i.e. bad ferment, oxidised, infected etc.

I'm in the camp that likes them dry, and bitter. There are so many other beers you can brew strong, malty hoppy, bitter: Old Ale, Barleywine, Strong Ale etc. IIPAs should be an exaggeration of the Americanised IPA - where the malt plays a support act to the leading role.

Apologies for the rant! I'm passionate about hoppy beer (obviously) and am bored at work to boot!

[Stu McKinlay]

Yeh, the few west coast beers I've tried are more toffee than caramel (or both), even tending a little toasty/astringent. Dry finish. Full Sail IPA springs to mind.

[Stu McKinlay]

My last bottle of Epiphany has your name on it - but I'm sharing it with you so you will have to come visit. You'll be shocked at how hoppy it still is after a couple of years.

Enigma is pretty good too.

ps. Don't worry about the address. I have it, of course, from the rye malt I sent you.