The Making Cider Thread

[Ralph]

From a conversation that was hidden in the conical fermentors thread... I thought I would bring it out into the open over here for a bit more discussion.

Permalink Reply by Ralph on May 6, 2012 at 8:49pm

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260L of apple juice! Damn fine work. Did you hijack a crate of apples?? Nice work on the conicals as well!!

Permalink Reply by Liam Callaghan on May 7, 2012 at 7:13am

Ordered a crate to be delivered from Hawkes Bay (25c/kg).  Unfortunately the guy I bought my ute off had the foresight to glue the canopy on the back so I had to handball each and every one from the crate to the back.  Gave each one a little polish of course...and ate a few!

Bubbling away like a mad thing, absolutely stoked!

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Permalink Reply by Hillman on May 9, 2012 at 8:27am

What yeast are you using for the cider? And what are you doing with 260L of it?? The conical looks awesome.

Permalink Reply by Grant R Baker on Friday

That's a supply of cider. What are you storing that in after fermentation...? 50l kegs?

 

SS looks pretty good... got me thinking about stand, lid, ball/butterfly valves etc etc.. but will wait to see yer plastic 35l model.

Permalink Reply by Liam Callaghan yesterday

Hey Grant,  Its a big lump of cider alright, really happy with it so far too, great taste.  Was afraid it would end up thin and incipid but its far from it.  Might have to bulk the % and add a little sugar syrup depending on how far it goes.  There is enough to experiment a little.

Stoked with the Saider (Cider with Saison yeast - name coined by Raffe before I get into trouble :p)

I used a mix of yeast Hillman.  SN9 wine yeast, Nottingham ale yeast and Farmhouse Ale (Belgian). with a good dose of yeast nutrient and a dab of olive oil as I didn't have much chance to oxygenate it after pasturising.  They all had a good 3-4" of foam on top within 24 hours, the Nottingham went nuts!

 

I'll follow up with the SS conical specs and price shortly, will do a one off deal on the first 10 to get some out there and get some responses.  Took it in to see Ben Middlemiss late last week and got a really good review.  Awesome wielding, was very impressed.  I'm trying to find time to get it into show Ian Ramsey and Steve from Hallertau but life is getting in the way...

 

You'll like the handle on the plastic ones Grant, some really nice additions to get with it if you need or want.  If you had the energy you could swing it over your head with this handle!

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Permalink Reply by Tilt 18 hours ago

Interested in your thoughts on the different yeasts there Liam once they've had a chance to do their thing - I'm planning a cider or two over winter - the lame arsed bottled juice  type though - and wondering about which yeast, if any, will leave a little body and "appleyness" behind.

Permalink Reply by Ralph 18 hours ago

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Plenty of opinions on the internet about yeast for cider. Champagne yeasts often get used and is what I used 2 years ago but tend to go quite dry. S04 has been recommended too and I tried that last year... still goes dry and does not leave much body. I have gone back to Champagne yeast (dried packets of Lavellin from the homebrew shop).

Only way to get body into store bought apple juice is to add something in that will not fully ferment. People recommend adding crab apples to normal apple juice to give enough tannins etc to add a bit of body and a bit of interesting flavour, otherwise apple juice has mostly fermentable sugars and will ferment most of the way through.

Another way to get some body into your cider is to use wild yeasts as these will often not ferment fully... quite a large risk of making a whole lot of cider vinegar tho...

For general information including things you may want to add to get the right acid level etc have a read through this http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scrumpy/cider/cider.htm

Permalink Reply by Tilt 7 hours ago

Thanks Ralph - great tips - always keen to hear other's personal experience re cider brewing. 

Agreed there's plenty of opinions out there - but I'm never sure which ones to trust.  Over time I've put together a summary of suggestions for good cider making that I've heard and seen on various sites from what seem to be reputable sources.  It goes something like this:

• Use lower attenuating Ale yeast for an English cider flavour, Champagne, Kitzinger or Hock (wine) yeasts for Normandy styles (Apple wine or Apfelwein)
• Ferment around 15degrees long and low (10-12deg OK for some yeasts depending on recommended temps)
• Stay sub 6% ETOH
• Add crab apple or heritage variety juice to increase tannins and non fermentables
• Condition 4-6 months at low temps (15deg) – possible time for malo lactic fermn
• Stop ferment at desired FG (around 1005 for some body) with metabisulphate and potassium sorbate
• Fermentis stopping above 1005 are usually “stuck” and need rousing, repitching and possible addition of nutrients
• Adjust with Malic acid to lower or CaC03 to raise pH – ideal pH 3.2-3.8 for fermentation
• Fine and rack a couple of times to reduce yeast load and slow fermentation.
• Rack around 2 weeks post cessation of fermentn activity
• Backsweeten if needed with lactose – but better to stop fermentation instead.
• Allow malo lactic fermentation to take place at around 15deg 3+months post primary fermentation
• English cider carbonate 1-1.5 vols, Normandy cider carbonate 2+ with champagne yeast
• Minimise O2 exposure post primary

Permalink Reply by Tilt 7 hours ago

And this thread on homebrewtalk is worthwhile to see the results of another bloke's extensive yeast and fermentables trials in the US - but I reckon its always good to hear what NZers are doing with local ingredients.  

This thread http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experimen...

[Liam Callaghan]

Very late reply sorry ralph, I took it to 64 degrees, kills most pathegens and we just wanted to be careful for our first batch.  If we had just made 50 litres I wouldn't have bothered, seems a bit of infection is normal in traditional cider.

Certainly doesn't seem to have affected the flavour or smell.

[Ralph]

I just put about 5 litres of quince juice into bottles and pitched with currently fermenting cider. I am interested to see what a straight fermented quince juice tastes like... although by some accounts I have read on the internet it is not great. However it sounds like 10% quince in the cider does add a nice flavour. Should be interesting!

The quince juice definitely has a bunch of tannins in it. It is quite a pleasant juice to drink... but leaves that mouth drying furry feeling of the tannins!

[Ralph]

Ok, so I am thinking about doing some of the cider dry like I have previously and I think I will also try doing some of it a little sweeter.

My thinking of method for the sweet at the moment is:

Ferment the cider to dry (done)

Crash chill and rack off the yeast (about to do this)

Store for a couple of months at a temperature above 15 degs to facilitate malolactic fermentation. Maybe rack again in this time if there is still yeast dropping out.

After I think there has been a malolactic ferment I will add some Potassium Sorbate and Sulphite (campden tabs) to stop any remaining yeast.

Add apple juice conc to get to desired sweetness

Carbonate by kegging

What do you people think. Does this sound like a good way to achieve a sweet cider?

[Tilt]

Sounds spot on to me - probably the best way to sweeten the cider up and get some extra apple flavour in your end product as a bonus. 

Other than resting for some time above 15C how do you reckon is the best way to promote malolactic fermentation?  I've tried this long rest in the past and had real hit and miss results.

I s'pose either way it doesn't really matter - you'll still have a fine drop of cider in your keg!

[Liam Callaghan]

Seems thats how most commercial ciders are made, they make them out to high alcohol (14-15%), clean out the yeast and water them down to the required strength and sweetness.

[Glynn cleaver]

ok so I'm just doing my last brew of cider what's the vote on removing the brown foam as it forms I have always skimmed but have read somewhere to leave it ?

[Ralph]

I have always left it on there and not worried about it, but reading about getting a cider that does not go completely dry they talk about racking the cider off from between the brown foam and the sediment, which reduces the nutrients for the remaining yeast, and if done right stresses the yeast to the point where the yeast stops fermenting the cider before it goes completely dry...

[Slingshot]

I was asking myself the same question yesterday: to skim the foam, or not to skim.  Decided not to skim.

Also realised today that I should have used the pectolase when I was juicing the apples...opps.  Mixed some into the juice anyway, hopefully it'll help clear it...we'll see.

Now the nervous wait for fermentation to start...

[Ralph]

my ciders have always cleared and I have never used pectolase...

[Matt]

Made a 50:50 granny smith nashi cider on the w/e. Used Richards ridiculously awesome medieval press, pretty sure neighbours thought I was gonna trebuchet a flaming boulder through the side of their house.

Both juices came in at 1.046, nashi tasted interesting to say the least, much sweeter on the palate than the g smith, both batches of pulp were pectinased over night before pressing. I pasteurised the 38L of juice in my electric pot at 63C for 30 mins before running through the heat exchanger before pitching. I ended up adding 250g of raw sugar and 250g of brown to get the gravity up a bit, I have read that pear juice is less fermentable than apple juice and i wanted the final product at about 6% ABV to give some stability for aging, so if the cider finishes at 1.005 I think I should hit the mark.

Starting pH was pretty high at 4.0 but seems to be in spec for perry and at least some of the apple cider specs floating around the net. Pitched 22g of rehydrated Nottingham and ferment is cranking along, am doing staged nutrient additions so still a bit of that to add yet.

Very interested to see how it comes out, given that Im not a huge fan of cider Im hoping that I will discover that is because I have only ever drunk commercial swill (much like the many preconceptions of beer preferences I have had smashed over the last few years of brewing)!

 

[Tilt]

Sounds like a good brew day.  I'll be interested to know where your finishing gravity ends up.  Are you going to arrest fermentation if you're heading below 1005?

[Matt]

Probably not, if necessary I will consider back sweetening later. I have some MLF bugs so will probably end up adding those as well which may help with the perceived dryness.