The Making Cider Thread

[Ralph]

From a conversation that was hidden in the conical fermentors thread... I thought I would bring it out into the open over here for a bit more discussion.

Permalink Reply by Ralph on May 6, 2012 at 8:49pm

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260L of apple juice! Damn fine work. Did you hijack a crate of apples?? Nice work on the conicals as well!!

Permalink Reply by Liam Callaghan on May 7, 2012 at 7:13am

Ordered a crate to be delivered from Hawkes Bay (25c/kg).  Unfortunately the guy I bought my ute off had the foresight to glue the canopy on the back so I had to handball each and every one from the crate to the back.  Gave each one a little polish of course...and ate a few!

Bubbling away like a mad thing, absolutely stoked!

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Permalink Reply by Hillman on May 9, 2012 at 8:27am

What yeast are you using for the cider? And what are you doing with 260L of it?? The conical looks awesome.

Permalink Reply by Grant R Baker on Friday

That's a supply of cider. What are you storing that in after fermentation...? 50l kegs?

 

SS looks pretty good... got me thinking about stand, lid, ball/butterfly valves etc etc.. but will wait to see yer plastic 35l model.

Permalink Reply by Liam Callaghan yesterday

Hey Grant,  Its a big lump of cider alright, really happy with it so far too, great taste.  Was afraid it would end up thin and incipid but its far from it.  Might have to bulk the % and add a little sugar syrup depending on how far it goes.  There is enough to experiment a little.

Stoked with the Saider (Cider with Saison yeast - name coined by Raffe before I get into trouble :p)

I used a mix of yeast Hillman.  SN9 wine yeast, Nottingham ale yeast and Farmhouse Ale (Belgian). with a good dose of yeast nutrient and a dab of olive oil as I didn't have much chance to oxygenate it after pasturising.  They all had a good 3-4" of foam on top within 24 hours, the Nottingham went nuts!

 

I'll follow up with the SS conical specs and price shortly, will do a one off deal on the first 10 to get some out there and get some responses.  Took it in to see Ben Middlemiss late last week and got a really good review.  Awesome wielding, was very impressed.  I'm trying to find time to get it into show Ian Ramsey and Steve from Hallertau but life is getting in the way...

 

You'll like the handle on the plastic ones Grant, some really nice additions to get with it if you need or want.  If you had the energy you could swing it over your head with this handle!

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Permalink Reply by Tilt 18 hours ago

Interested in your thoughts on the different yeasts there Liam once they've had a chance to do their thing - I'm planning a cider or two over winter - the lame arsed bottled juice  type though - and wondering about which yeast, if any, will leave a little body and "appleyness" behind.

Permalink Reply by Ralph 18 hours ago

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Plenty of opinions on the internet about yeast for cider. Champagne yeasts often get used and is what I used 2 years ago but tend to go quite dry. S04 has been recommended too and I tried that last year... still goes dry and does not leave much body. I have gone back to Champagne yeast (dried packets of Lavellin from the homebrew shop).

Only way to get body into store bought apple juice is to add something in that will not fully ferment. People recommend adding crab apples to normal apple juice to give enough tannins etc to add a bit of body and a bit of interesting flavour, otherwise apple juice has mostly fermentable sugars and will ferment most of the way through.

Another way to get some body into your cider is to use wild yeasts as these will often not ferment fully... quite a large risk of making a whole lot of cider vinegar tho...

For general information including things you may want to add to get the right acid level etc have a read through this http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scrumpy/cider/cider.htm

Permalink Reply by Tilt 7 hours ago

Thanks Ralph - great tips - always keen to hear other's personal experience re cider brewing. 

Agreed there's plenty of opinions out there - but I'm never sure which ones to trust.  Over time I've put together a summary of suggestions for good cider making that I've heard and seen on various sites from what seem to be reputable sources.  It goes something like this:

• Use lower attenuating Ale yeast for an English cider flavour, Champagne, Kitzinger or Hock (wine) yeasts for Normandy styles (Apple wine or Apfelwein)
• Ferment around 15degrees long and low (10-12deg OK for some yeasts depending on recommended temps)
• Stay sub 6% ETOH
• Add crab apple or heritage variety juice to increase tannins and non fermentables
• Condition 4-6 months at low temps (15deg) – possible time for malo lactic fermn
• Stop ferment at desired FG (around 1005 for some body) with metabisulphate and potassium sorbate
• Fermentis stopping above 1005 are usually “stuck” and need rousing, repitching and possible addition of nutrients
• Adjust with Malic acid to lower or CaC03 to raise pH – ideal pH 3.2-3.8 for fermentation
• Fine and rack a couple of times to reduce yeast load and slow fermentation.
• Rack around 2 weeks post cessation of fermentn activity
• Backsweeten if needed with lactose – but better to stop fermentation instead.
• Allow malo lactic fermentation to take place at around 15deg 3+months post primary fermentation
• English cider carbonate 1-1.5 vols, Normandy cider carbonate 2+ with champagne yeast
• Minimise O2 exposure post primary

Permalink Reply by Tilt 7 hours ago

And this thread on homebrewtalk is worthwhile to see the results of another bloke's extensive yeast and fermentables trials in the US - but I reckon its always good to hear what NZers are doing with local ingredients.  

This thread http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experimen...

[Matt]

tested the gravity today, fermentation seems to have finished up and as suspected nashis are behaving more like pears than apples. FG is 1.007 so straight nashi juice wouldve been about 1.014. Good to know as couldnt find ANY info on nashi juice fermentability prior to conducting this experiment!

[Ralph]

Nice one. How is it tasting?

[Matt]

really good actually, our mega batch of apple cider was still gag-worthy at 2wks so very encouraging, nice granny smith tang with residual nashi sweetness

[Dene McDonald]

I'm brewing a cider right now - I'm doing a test batch in a 5 litre carboy and filled it up with 4 litres. However I've noticed that there's not much activity on top and it's not getting a large krausen like beer does.

Does anyone know if this is typical? I'm looking to keg so I want to brew 19 litre batches of cider and wondering if I'll get away with a 20 litre carboy.

[Damon Colbert]

Ciders do ferment much more slowly; not quite as much protein means the yeast are somewhat limited.

Activity at the top probably has a bit to do with the kind of yeast you are using.  I have used Lalvin EC-1118 (champagne yeast) twice in the past, and on neither occasion was there any krausen formation.

That said, I imagine krausen has a lot to do with protein content (and foam stability) as well.  Less protein means less foam, in my books.

I would think you'd be pretty safe to ferment 19L ciders in 20L carboys.  But be aware you take my opinion at your own risk :D

[MrC]

I made a cider recently using nottingham yeast and there was no krausen whatsoever.  I think 19L in a 20L carboy would be fine, especially if using a known recipe..