Beer to Malty

[Mark Meyburg]

Hi

I have been trying to make a super charger clone - recent one was from Paul Wicksteed's recipe of beersmith.

Only put American Ale and some gladiator in it - truck loads of Simcoe, citra, centennial and Amarillo fermented with San Deiago Super Yeast.

When compared with Pan head's - theirs is super fresh and zingy. Mine is ok but really malty. What is going on.

pH was about 5.6 mash temp was 65 C

Seems to be a reoccurring issue with all but the lightest of blondes.

How do Liberty and Panhead get that super fresh flavour without the malt overload.

Any ideas ????

Cheers Mark

[Cain Harland]

Glad you posted that Ive been having a similar issue since starting to use acidulated malt. Less tannin great but so much more malt flavor, too much in a couple of beers.

[Grant R Baker]

It might be the yeast.  US-05, WLP001 or 1056, all american ale yeast are recommened for this beer. I have not used SD Super Yeast but it stood out.

Others wise leave out the Gladiator as already mentioned...

[Crusader-Rob]

Is it a malt sweetnes/Toffe flavour?

what was your ferm temp and tferm time?

The other questions, was is it BIAg or other?

The reason I ask, I made a similar beer which was overly malty/toffee like, and a friend of mine identified it as diacetyl, it does not always manifest as buttery, but can sometime disguise itself as an over sweet toffee flavour.

the way around this with yeasts like US-05/001/SD Super is to give a D-Rest at 21-22 degrees after 5-7 days of fermentation, and let it ride for a number of days.

Just a thought.

[Mark Meyburg]

Hi 

Yeah could be  - yes toffee like.

Fermented at 18 C 7 days. Did boost to 21c-22C 3days. Dry hopped 2 days.

May need longer D rest ?

3 vessel all grain . fly sparged

Thanks

[Cain Harland]

Good call. I recon you could be right its hidden under a lot of hops but possible diacetyl in mine. I did a ascending fermentation temp with decent D rest but the yeast was very slow to start.

[IPeeAye]

SOLVED

I had the same problem with malt levels in my XPA using Ale malt (and even Gladfields American Ale malt which is meant to be 'less malty')

I have moved my XPA recipe to 50/50 Golden Promise and GF Vienna malt mashed @67C pH 5.5.    I only use a little hops in the boil for bitterness, then toss in truckloads of hops for a 20 steep/whirlpool.

Used MJ M44 yeast which ferments out real well @ 19C (FG 1.010) so is relatively dry and clean.

Dry hopped for 4 days and then crash cooled and tossed in a bit of gelatine - the result is a nice clean crystal clear XPA which accentuates the hops in both taste and aroma, v similar to Supercharger.

@ 5.4% and <$2 a litre, I know what my go to beer is...... it is  now a permanent tap in my Brewhouse.

Brew On!

[Sam DT]

Just to throw my two cents in:

If you want zing and hop forward I'd get pH down low - I generally aim for pH 5.3 in hoppy beers, the increase in acidity helps bring the hops forward and gives you a fresh zing (I'd possibly aim a touch higher for supercharger maybe 5.4).

Get your sulphates up in the range of 180 ppm ideally with chlorides below 100 ppm - sulphates accentuate hop, chlorides accentuate malt.

I'd use M44 - it is clean and increases acidity slightly more than other chico type strains like WLP001, US-05 (at least according to MJ literature). I use it as my house yeast and really like it. Also make sure you re-hydrate - I sometimes even pitch two packets with a 1.050 OG.

Start around 18 degrees and move up towards 21-23 after the primary fermentation is complete for a standard pale like supercharger, if you want to do something like quick-change I'd go as low as 16 for initial fermentation (I'd also use some pilsner malt for quick-change - that's how I do my NZ Pils and it tastes quite similar (Mot, Riwaka, NZ for hops)).

I'm a big believer in Gladfield Am Ale, if you want clean then it's a good way to go.

Go late with your hops - I generally do a 60 minute bittering addition and then go 15, 5, 0 and add a significant dry hop - 40-50g for a NZ Pils - 60-100g for a PA.

Hope that's of help,

[Mark Meyburg]

Hi Sam T

Thanks for this - awesome input and worth more than 2 cents. Do you use acidulated malt , if so what amount. Also when using pils - what ratio

Other question is do you use latic acid.

Cheers mark

[Sam DT]

Hi Mark, no worries, mainly regurgitating stuff I've picked up off others on here over the last couple of years, more than happy to pitch in.

I use acidulated malt, normally 200g per 23L batch, that works great for Christchurch water but there's significant variation around the country. Same with salt additions, I use 4g CaCl, 4g Epsom, 8g Gypsum but again that's for Christchurch.

Download ez-water calculator and you should be able to get figures for your area either on this site or from your local council, local homebrew groups on facebook and here are also a good start. Ez allows you to tweak using salts, acidulated malt and lactic acid additions.

5.3 which is my usual target (not actually measured just calculated) is .1 below palmers recommended range but I err on the side of higher acidity. It's worth noting that the hoppy styles that we're used to here are generally outside the limits of what was considered normal 10 years or so ago. If I'm sparging I often throw in half a teaspoon of citric acid to acidify the sparge as well - i'd use lactic but I have citric in the cupboard. 

For my NZ Pils I use 4kg pils 1kg american ale - I think it was a suggestion/recipe from Peter Smith on here some where. I use a 80/20 Motueka to NS split and when I can get it sub out up to 50% of the Mot with Riwaka but it's not always available. I use about 180g all up. Again it's worth noting that (at least in my mind) an NZ Pils is closer to an extra pale american ale than a traditional Pilsner hence I use the same higher ppm of sulphates that I'd use in a standard NZ or APA.